Protestant DH has issues with Mary and the Saints


#1

My dear husband is a baptized unpracticing mehtodist and I am a cradel catholic revert trying to convert him. We have been going over the many issues we agree on and the ones we don’t for about 4 months. One of the big differences is my belief in honoring Mary and the Saints. He thinks she was just a vessel and that we are all saints inGod’s eyes. One instance he likes to claim about Peter is that when he walked on water he thus proceded to fall in as he claims this is his fallabillity. Any ideas on how to disfute his dishonoring and critizicing? dessert


#2

Does he therefore reject all the scripture written by Peter? Does he reject all the scripture written by the other, fallible, apostles? They couldn’t walk on the water either.

To view the question from the other side, if God could prevent fallible, sinning humans from writing error in the scriptures, He can prevent fallible, sinning humans from teaching error to the entire Church. He is God, after all!

Oh, and as far as Mary being just a vessel, to say this is to deny the Incarnation. For a vessel does not impart of itself to its contents. Therefore, if Mary was just a vessel she did not impart her humanity to Christ. And if He did not get His humanity from His mother, then He is not fully man. He is just God wearing a man-suit. That is not the Incarnation…


#3

Well, your husband’s issues with Mary and the saints are different than mine. Mine center around the belief that we should honor God and God alone, since He is the Creator of all.
I have never heard that argument about disproving papal infallibility but that’s interesting. I’ll take it to my bible study group this Friday night. :slight_smile:
Sorry I wasn’t much help on trying to help you relate better to your dh’s disagreements with the CC.


#4

And yet God tells us that we should honor others as well. The bible is full of examples. In fact, the bible even says that the Father will honor those of us who serve Christ. Should we not honor those whom God Himself honors?!


#5

We worship God.

We honor Mary.

Major difference.


#6

You seem to contradict yourself. You said God tells us to honor others but yet you say the bible says (which I agree with you here) that the Father will honor those who serve Christ.
What need do we have to honor others? God Himself says that He alone is the One worthy of our praise. Jesus is the mediator between us and God.


#7

Yes, the bible makes this clear.

but yet you say the bible says (which I agree with you here) that the Father will honor those who serve Christ.
What need do we have to honor others?

If there was no reason to do it, why would scripture tell us to do it?

God Himself says that He alone is the One worthy of our praise. Jesus is the mediator between us and God.

Now you have replaced “honor” with “praise”. But there is nothing in the meaning of the word “praise” which limits it to God. If by “praise” you mean “worship” then you should say worship. Praise and honor are not identical to worship, and they are not limited to God.

And yes, I know that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. But I also know that we are told to pray for one another, and to seek the prayers of others for ourselves. A strict reading of “one mediator” would forbid us from ever praying for one another.


#8

Please cite your scripture sources for both of your claims so that we may discuss that. :wink:

[quote=VociMike]And yes, I know that Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. But I also know that we are told to pray for one another, and to seek the prayers of others for ourselves. A strict reading of “one mediator” would forbid us from ever praying for one another.
[/quote]

Is anyone else in scripture referred to as “mediator” besides Jesus Christ? If so, please cite the passage so I can read it. :thumbsup:


#9

Yes, this is true. But as a former Catholic you “honor” Mary just a little to much for some folks. It makes them feel very uneasy when you spend so much time praying the rosary etc when you could be praying directly to Jesus Christ.

Lee44


#10

There are far too many instances of men being honored, and descriptions of ones who are honored, cited in the bible, and cited without any divine objection, for me to provide them all here. The bible is rampant with such instances and such descriptions. The most obvious one is the 4th commandment. A few others, chosen at random, include Proverbs (“The wise will inherit honor”), Psalms (“his [the righteous man’s] horn is exalted in honor”), Romans ("[give] honor to whom honor is due"). Do a search and you will find that the bible has no problem with humans being honored. It appears to me that you have decided that honor is the same as worship, but they are not the same.

As to the Father honoring those who serve Christ, that is in John 12:26. So the Father is honoring all of the saints in heaven. How can we do less?

Is anyone else in scripture referred to as “mediator” besides Jesus Christ? If so, please cite the passage so I can read it. :thumbsup:

Why should I answer a question when we both know the answer already? As I said, if you interpret “one mediator” strictly (and falsely, I might add), then nobody must ever pray for anybody else. Is that your interpretation?


#11

s anyone else in scripture referred to as “mediator” besides Jesus Christ? If so, please cite the passage so I can read it.

I’m not sure you understood VociMike’s statement. He was saying that any prayer for someone other than yourself is mediating. Which is an accurate statement. If however you did understand that and you are saying that you don’t think Christians should pray for one another then here is a verse:

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:15-17

In terms of honoring others:

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
Romans 12:9-11


#12

From my understanding, the pope is only infallible when speaking specifically on doctrine. A saint necessarily infallible or sinless. Catholic doctrine teaches that all those in heaven and Christians on earth are saints as well.


#13

I never accused you for being false in what you are saying. :frowning: But since you have accused me of being false, you have contradicted the Bible.
Obviously this is not something we’re going to agree on so why don’t you just focus on the OP and her issues with her dh and the CC.
To answer your last question, I will pray for you that you may see the Truth. :thumbsup:


#14

You are mistaken. I spoke of a false interpetation of “one mediator” and asked if you believed that false interpretation. Since you have offered to pray for me, you clearly do not believe that false interpretation – that is, you believe that “one mediator” does not prohibit us from praying for each other, or from asking each other for prayers.


#15

When praying the rosary, one is not praying *to Mary. One is praying to Jesus, through *Mary.

As for too much honor, I can’t imagine another human being in the world more worthy. Whereas we give honor to presidents, kings, queens, scholars, athletes and such, none of these, with all their accomplishments and accolades, were chosen to be the vessel for delivering the Messiah to the world.

Worship? No.

Honor? Most worthy.


#16

As Catholics, we believe in Sacred scripture and Sacred tradition.2Thess.2:15.We also believe the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church.Mt.16:18-19.What is the "pillar and "foundation of truth?The answer is found in 1tim.3:14-15.Please read Rev.8:3-4 and Rev.5:8.Where did they(Angels and Elders get the prayers that were offered up to God?


#17

Yes I understand this, I am a former Catholic, but protestants wonder why not just go directly to Jesus Christ. After all, devotion to Mary is not based on the scriptures.

Lee44


#18

Hi,
Actually the bible tells us to pray to God through Jesus Christ. So we are really suppose to pray to God through Jesus Christ. I had this discussion once in a bible study. The conclusion was that the bible teaches we are to pray only to God through Jesus. I cant remeber the verse but I know Jesus speaks of going thru Him to get to the Father. I believe this is the line up for prayer:

Pray to God in Jesus’s name with the help of the Holy Spirit.:thumbsup:


#19

So, AllForHim, If I asked you to pray for me, you’d refuse?


#20

No of course not.:smiley: Do you need prayer for something. Of course God tells us to pray for other people. We call it intercessary prayers. When someone asks for a church wide prayer we call that corporate prayer. I have no issue with that. What I am talking about is when we bow(personally)to pray to God. I am not talking about the content of our prayers. Just the order in which we are to pray. Like I said we pray(our prayers) to God through Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I hope that clears it up.:thumbsup: I have to go eat .:smiley:


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