Protestant England is Dead


#1

Nothing has done more to create that impression than the decision by Prince Charles on Monday to postpone his wedding to Camilla Parker Bowles, initially set for Friday, by one day to permit Prime Minister Tony Blair and the archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, head of the Church of England, to attend the papal burial rather than a royal wedding.

Even Charles himself - representative of a monarchy that broke with Rome in the 16th century - is planning to attend the funeral on behalf of his mother, Queen Elizabeth II, the head of state. That makes this country one of the few to be represented at the funeral by church, state and government.

“The funeral of a pope, let us be clear, has never until now been the sort of event deemed to require the attendance of the British prime minister - or even the archbishop of Canterbury,” Martin Kettle wrote in his column in The Guardian. “It is hard not to catch one’s breath at the rupture with national history that all this represents.”

Or, as Mr. Almond put it, “Henry VIII must be turning in his Windsor grave.”


#2

I’ve read there are more English Muslims at services on Fridays than there are Chrsitians at services on Sunday. Sadly the Catholic minority is moribund too. Only the small evangelical community is showing any signs of life in formerly Christian England.


#3

It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope


#4

On a technical note, the queen is the head of the Church of England.


#5

For those who do not know, British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s wife and children are practicing Catholics and he attends mass with them.

He is waiting until he steps down from office to come home.


#6

[quote=Lost&Found]For those who do not know, British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s wife and children are practicing Catholics and he attends mass with them.
[/quote]

[font=comic sans ms]That’s why I’m not surprised at Blair being there. But I was pleased that the archbishop of Canterbury and Prince Charles attended the Requiem Mass. I also read somewhere that the archbishop of Canterbury–just not sure if it’s the present one–was sad when the talks between the Catholic Church and Anglican church broke off. It’s as if the Anglican church was ready to reconcile (the talks broke off because the Anglican church had then decided to allow women priests).[/font]


#7

[quote=Lost&Found]For those who do not know, British Prime Minister Tony Blair’s wife and children are practicing Catholics and he attends mass with them.

He is waiting until he steps down from office to come home.
[/quote]

Does anyone know if you can be a prime-minister in England and still be catholic?
I know you can’t be a King or Queen in the Royal family and be catholic? What kind of ridiculous Reformation garbage prejudice is going on here?


#8

[quote=Maccabees]Does anyone know if you can be a prime-minister in England and still be catholic?
I know you can’t be a King or Queen in the Royal family and be catholic? What kind of ridiculous Reformation garbage prejudice is going on here?
[/quote]

Kind of, but he would need to go against the grain:
cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=35403
About three quarters down the article a section called “Anti-Catholic Laws”.


#9

I had this sentiment when I discovered that they were not having their marriage in a Church.


#10

[quote=jaydog77]It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope
[/quote]

Someone once made this statement about Northern Ireland,
“there’s plenty of religion,but not much christianity”.What that meant was that there was quite a high church attendance,but there was a lot of hate as well.In addition,i have heard people say
with a fair amount of justification that they were probably better
christians than many of those who go to Church.Whether we live in Europe,America,Africa or anywhere else,how many church attenders can say they regularly visit the sick?That is,people outside of their own family and friends.How many volunteer their services at hostels for down and outs,where you sometimes have to step in between two guys having a fall-out?


#11

[quote=jaydog77]It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope
[/quote]

We should always maintain hope. As Belloc said: Europe is the Faith and the Faith is Europe. She will embrace her Catholic heritage or die. I think the same can be said for Americas (although the US has a protestant foundation).


#12

[quote=burnside]Someone once made this statement about Northern Ireland,
“there’s plenty of religion,but not much christianity”.What that meant was that there was quite a high church attendance,but there was a lot of hate as well.In addition,i have heard people say
with a fair amount of justification that they were probably better
christians than many of those who go to Church.Whether we live in Europe,America,Africa or anywhere else,how many church attenders can say they regularly visit the sick?That is,people outside of their own family and friends.How many volunteer their services at hostels for down and outs,where you sometimes have to step in between two guys having a fall-out?
[/quote]

Catholics in Northern Ireland were often held up by the British army and RUC, just long enough so we would miss Mass.
People in the North struggled and paid dearly for their faith, it reminded me of the days when Priests and faithfull were driven underground here.

So unless you’ve walked in my shoes, be careful, what you think constitutes a Christian.

Everyone that goes to Mass is a sinner, the Church is a hospital for sinners, and we’re all sinners.
A little prayer instead of condemming might be better, “It’s better to light a candle than curse the dark”.


#13

:amen:


#14

Thanks Lost&Found for sharing the Catholic World News article on Tony Blair’s possible conversion. The piece was very enlightening. As a Catholic of Scottish ancestry, I have always been very curious about the UK’s views on the Old Church.

By the way, my studies indicate that Henry VIII may have been very remorseful of his break with Rome. Some at his court were fearful of his possible “re-conversion”. In fact, it is quite possible that Henry may have been kept “in the dark” on the extent of his poor health. The motive? To eliminate a possible “deathbed re-conversion”. Remember, it was the Nobles at Henry’s Court that benefited most from the plunder of Church property that resulted from Henry’s break with Rome.


#15

[quote=Bud Stewart]Thanks Lost&Found for sharing the Catholic World News article on Tony Blair’s possible conversion. The piece was very enlightening. As a Catholic of Scottish ancestry, I have always been very curious about the UK’s views on the Old Church.

By the way, my studies indicate that Henry VIII may have been very remorseful of his break with Rome. Some at his court were fearful of his possible “re-conversion”. In fact, it is quite possible that Henry may have been kept “in the dark” on the extent of his poor health. The motive? To eliminate a possible “deathbed re-conversion”. Remember, it was the Nobles at Henry’s Court that benefited most from the plunder of Church property that resulted from Henry’s break with Rome.
[/quote]

Henry VIII would have bent to the wind of what was best for Henry VIII. While he was married to Katherine of Aragon, he was given the title ‘Defender of the Faith’. When he decided to end his marriage to marry Anne Boleyn, the pope would not cooperate. Much of this was due to the pope being strongly influenced by the Holy Roman Emperor who was Catherine of Aragon’s nephew. When Henry VIII saw he would not get a church sanctioned end to his marriage, he broke with the church. He stated it was on grounds that he was the head of the church of England and not the pope. By being the head of the church in his own country, he saw himself as having the right to do with the church there as he planned. This included the church statues, artifacts, etc. Thomas Cromwell helped to lead the breaking down of these things. Henry VIII did not intend to break with the theology of the church and really never completely did that. However, his actions lead to the English Reformation amongst his subjects. If Henry VIII, planned a return, it was because he finally had what he had hoped to gain by marrying Anne Boleyn. A son. However, Jane Seymour ended up being the wife who gave it to him. If Henry VIII, returned it would have been mostly a return to a recognition of authority as he never personally intended a true break with the overall teachings.


#16

[quote=jaydog77]It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope
[/quote]

Oh how convenient a sentiment for American arrogance–and how utterly un-Christian. To write any person or culture off is one of the greatest sins you can commit.

Edwin


#17

[quote=Contarini] Originally Posted by jaydog77
*It’s probably time to write Europe off. They’ve long ago taken the plunge off the slippery slope

Oh how convenient a sentiment for American arrogance–and how utterly un-Christian. To write any person or culture off is one of the greatest sins you can commit.

Edwin
[/quote]

I must agree with Edwin that one should never write a person or culture off. The church in Europe may be dead (although I heartily doubt it), but as G.K. Chesterton said, she has a founder who knows the way out of the grave.

I can’t help but be reminded of a quote from Mohandas Gandhi. Someone asked him what he thought of Western civilization, and he replied that he thought it would be an excellent idea. Zing!

  • Liberian

#18

I think it would be fair to say Protestant England and in general Christian Europe is dead. The numbers, attitudes and lifestyles tell us it is.

However Christ has risen from the dead before.
Witnees the continent of Africa it was in general dead to Christiantiy because of the infusion of Islam christiantiy stopped evangelizing in the contienet. WEll the last 100 years the Catholic Church and other Christian sects have reevangelzied Africa and while the North has been lost to Islam the continent is being won to christ in the central and southern africa.
Maybe in another age Europe itself will be reevangelized as it tires of the secualrization which brings no fulfillment.
Maybe this time is sonner than we think as the Pope believed in the Springtime of Evangelization. The question is when will these seeds in Europe sprout?


#19

[quote=Maccabees]I think it would be fair to say Protestant England and in general Christian Europe is dead. The numbers, attitudes and lifestyles tell us it is.

However Christ has risen from the dead before.
Witnees the continent of Africa it was in general dead to Christiantiy because of the infusion of Islam christiantiy stopped evangelizing in the contienet. WEll the last 100 years the Catholic Church and other Christian sects have reevangelzied Africa and while the North has been lost to Islam the continent is being won to christ in the central and southern africa.
Maybe in another age Europe itself will be reevangelized as it tires of the secualrization which brings no fulfillment.
Maybe this time is sonner than we think as the Pope believed in the Springtime of Evangelization. The question is when will these seeds in Europe sprout?
[/quote]

Perhaps when Africa is ready to evangelize Europe…


#20

SInce Europe has empty seminaries many of their new priest are imported from conservative Africa. So yeah that is a possibility.
But even if you have on-fire priest the lay people have to participate in the evangelization or these priest will be preaching to the pretty statues they have in Old Europe and not to young people.


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