protestant idols?


#1

So today I was at the book store, and a family christian store, I had noticed a large amount of Jesus paraphernalia in the form of fashion. I never really new what this was until I had a previous relationship with a fundamentalist girlfriend a couple years back.
After reading a lot of belligerent arguments online about " Catholic idol worship"
( in quotations ) ,and having them with my EX, GF.
I had noticed that most of the Christians wearing these shirts, hoodies, hats and bracelets are non-denominational or protestant in general

Going to mass on Sundays I have never seen anyone wearing such T-shirts that say
" get out of hell, free card " or "stop drop and roll , won't save you in hell "
This post wasn't made to start an " Idol Debate " as I really don't care, but that being said,
if the same accusations are made towards myself as a Catholic, wouldn't that be the
pot calling the kettle black if the protestant christian is the same person wearing the Jesus fashionable clothes. Seems like a successful way to make money if one wants to start a fashion business though. ( not what I would do )

Just throwing that out there, to everyone. ... :thumbsup:


#2

My experience in visiting Protestant churches and listening to what Protestants say against Catholics and the Catholic Church is that the former contradict themselves. They rail against the Rosary because it is reptitive prayer, yet many of their worship services include the practice of singing choruses over and over again. They criticize our veneration of the saints, yet they hold folks such as Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon in similar esteem. They say the Bible is their final authority, yet many of them will quote what their pastor says about something instead of what the Bible says. On a related note, some of them seem to come close to idolizing their pastors the way they accuse us of idolizing the pope. One of the saddest things about all of this is that Catholics who fall prey to anti-catholic proselytizing don't see the contradictions.


#3

For some Protestants, the Bible itself is their idol!


#4

[quote="Fiasco, post:3, topic:277338"]
For some Protestants, the Bible itself is their idol!

[/quote]

I love your screen name. :D

My Bible is one of my most cherished possessions. I don't understand why more Catholics don't have a deep love, and even veneration for the Holy Word of God. Scripture is God's love letter to us. It is the Creator of the Universe talking to his children as His Church and to each of us individually.

Besides, Catholics own the Bible. It's ours. We wrote it. We assembled it. We even gave it the name "Bible." And we interpret it for the world.

A deep love for scripture is one of the great gifts that Protestants will bring to the Catholic Church when they finally come back under the authority and guidance of the Holy Father. Imagine seventeen million Bible thumping Southern Baptists converting to Catholicism and bringing that same zeal and love for the Holy word of God into our Church.

I learned to love scripture from studying the Bible with Evangelicals and Baptists. Ultimately, I have them to thank for bringing me back to the Catholic Church, but the one gift I took from them was a deep love for the Bible.

Look at the way the deacon holds the Book of the Gospels aloft as he approaches the ambo to read from it. Look at how he kisses it after he reads from it. That is how every Catholic should feel about the Bible.

I think the Bible should have its own feast day :D We could call it the "Feast of Sacred Scripture."

Sorry for going off topic. I have wanted one of those hoodies which say "CATHOLIC est 33 AD" for some time.

-Tim-


#5

[quote="TimothyH, post:4, topic:277338"]

Imagine seventeen million Bible thumping Southern Baptists converting to Catholicism and bringing that same zeal and love for the Holy word of God into our Church.
-Tim-

[/quote]

Amen!


#6

[quote="dsfo, post:2, topic:277338"]
My experience in visiting Protestant churches and listening to what Protestants say against Catholics and the Catholic Church is that the former contradict themselves. They rail against the Rosary because it is reptitive prayer, yet many of their worship services include the practice of singing choruses over and over again. They criticize our veneration of the saints, yet they hold folks such as Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon in similar esteem. They say the Bible is their final authority, yet many of them will quote what their pastor says about something instead of what the Bible says. On a related note, some of them seem to come close to idolizing their pastors the way they accuse us of idolizing the pope. One of the saddest things about all of this is that Catholics who fall prey to anti-catholic proselytizing don't see the contradictions.

[/quote]

Wow, talking about idols...

One guy I have talked to recently had a Bible interlaced with Jimmy Swaggert's commentary. Every time we'd talk about something in the Bible he'd read what Jimmy says and consider that the gospel truth, even though Jimmy blatantly contradicts himself. The guy just was incapable of thinking for himself-- it was easier for him to let Jimmy do the thinking for him I guess. It was so bad that I asked him what he thought, and he couldn't answer...all he could do was read what Jimmy says...and he'd go on and on about how great Jimmy is and all the wonderful things this man supposedly did. If Jimmy says it happened, then it did in his mind.

My brother (I pray for him), currently belongs to a church that practically 'worships' (by that I mean idolize) William Branham. Everyone one of them has a picture of the man hanging in their house. They are anti-catholic, of course, and most of the teachings are interlaced with anti-catholic rhetoric from what I have heard. They criticize people like me for having a painting of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of all Christians who gave birth to our Lord and Savior hanging in my house, but it's perfectly okay for them to hang an image of a false prophet in theirs. They too will read Branham's teachings, which will point out a particular verse in the Bible, and they will open the Bible, read that verse and say, "Yes, it does say that!"...and they believe everything that man tells them no matter how preposterous it is. They too go on and on about how wondering this Branham guy is and all the miracles he supposedly did (miracles that Branham himself claims happened to which he was the only witness of).

It just amazes me that people can be that oblivious.


#7

[quote="TrueLight, post:5, topic:277338"]
Amen!

[/quote]

And imagine all those Jehovah's Witnesses going door to door handing out rosaries. :D

-Tim-


#8

That is a good thought to go to sleep on!! :thumbsup:


#9

[quote="TimothyH, post:7, topic:277338"]
And imagine all those Jehovah's Witnesses going door to door handing out rosaries. :D

-Tim-

[/quote]

Amen! Or the strong work & family ethic of the Mormons aiding the Church with those missionaries going around handing out the CCC! Or the lovely soul music of the AME Church choirs singing the Ave Maria!

I second the thought sistermouse, good thought to go to bed on!

And something to work for!


#10

[quote="TimothyH, post:4, topic:277338"]
I love your screen name. :D

[/quote]

Its not original.
In a Donald Duck comic from the 1960s, Goofy has an uncle who
s an inventor. His name`s Fiasco Goof. Totally apt! Let your imagination run wild! :D
He and Gyro Gearloose would have been good mates.

My Bible is one of my most cherished possessions. I don't understand why more Catholics don't have a deep love, and even veneration for the Holy Word of God. Scripture is God's love letter to us. It is the Creator of the Universe talking to his children as His Church and to each of us individually.....

......A deep love for scripture is one of the great gifts that Protestants will bring to the Catholic Church when they finally come back under the authority and guidance of the Holy Father. Imagine seventeen million Bible thumping Southern Baptists converting to Catholicism and bringing that same zeal and love for the Holy word of God into our Church.

I learned to love scripture from studying the Bible with Evangelicals and Baptists. Ultimately, I have them to thank for bringing me back to the Catholic Church, but the one gift I took from them was a deep love for the Bible.

......That is how every Catholic should feel about the Bible.

-Tim-

All true; and Scott Hahn and his fellow converts say exactly the same thing. But, the trouble is, some Fundamentalist types go beyond the bounds of......umm......(Honestly can`t think of an appropriate term! :blush:)


#11

The holy WORD of God is Jesus himself, not the bible or any other book written by humans.
Ples read the first chapter of the gospel of St John. Itis obvious in that book "the Word" is Jesus not the bible.
Thebible in the beggining, the bible is God? The bible created all things?


#12

When I was a Baptist, I would hear this accusation, of 'idol worship' all the time and corrected it more than once. Even as a lapsed Catholic, I knew it not to be true. I personally have NEVER seen, in my youth or now, a Catholic 'worship' a statue. Catholics have pictures or statues of Jesus and other significant figures in our religious life- not to worship, but as a gentle reminder of that person or event. (Much like a picture of your parents on your dresser or mantle or hallway wall.) Catholics worship with all senses. We have incense (smell); chanting & beautiful hymns (hearing); rosary beads, anointing of Holy Oils, Holy Water, the sign of the Cross (touch); beautiful statutes (sight); and Holy Eucharist, the Body & Blood of Christ (taste). These are only a few of the ways in which Catholics worship God.
Even Luther never made an accusation of 'idol worship' against the Catholic Church.
What I find amusing is that evangelicals are far more guilty of idolitry than any Catholic. When pictures of Jesus are shown in a Sunday School book or down at the local evangelical Family Bookstore, He looks more like Barry Gibb of the BeeGees than the Son of God. I heard of (didn't witness myself) a fundamentalist Baptist church in the South which held a procession (very Catholic) holding the Bible up and proclaiming "this (the Bible, specifally the KJV) is the stone cut without hands" (quoting Daniel). The person who witnessed this said it chilled him to the bone and never went back to that church.
And Catholics are the idolitars?
We are physical beings and therefore must express things in a physical way, especially worship. Statues and pictures are merely part of that.


#13

[quote="JonathonofOhio, post:6, topic:277338"]
. . .My brother (I pray for him), currently belongs to a church that practically 'worships' (by that I mean idolize) William Branham. Everyone one of them has a picture of the man hanging in their house. They are anti-catholic, of course, and most of the teachings are interlaced with anti-catholic rhetoric from what I have heard. They criticize people like me for having a painting of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of all Christians who gave birth to our Lord and Savior hanging in my house, but it's perfectly okay for them to hang an image of a false prophet in theirs. . . .

[/quote]

JonathonofOhio,

The last Southern Baptist service my son and I attended was on an Easter Sunday. There was a large cross on the stage (Baptists don't have alters and the cross was there for Easter). During the service, a man walked onto the stage and bowed at the foot of the cross. My son, already so disillusioned by the Baptist Church, whispered to me, "Mom, isn't he bowing before a graven image?" He realized the Baptist teachings against such things, were at that point, in serious contradiction.

Peace,
Anna


What do Baptists believe?
#14

I think there are two issues: graven images and worshiping that which is not God. The Muslims actually have a more extreme notion of graven images where they do not make images of the created world (that is why their art features geometric shapes and letters). It might be more sensible than what many Protestants think regarding the issue. The Protestant view of graven images runs the gamut but it seems is usually restricted to icons of people, excepting for a general stance against statues. The prohibition seems greatest in the sanctuary. For some reason some will not have images of people in the sanctuary, including stained glass windows, but will allow a picture in the Sunday School room.

I would think that Protestants with tshirts would say they are not worshiping the tshirt. They (not me) would claim that Catholics *are *worshiping whatever object the Protestant objects to. One problem is the word worship. It means to show honor. In older usage we would worship all sorts of things. And we still might say about a husband that he worships his wife. We would call a king 'your worship'. If worship is taken to be showing honor than we worship many things. As I understand it theologians have a word for worship due to God alone, latria. The Protestants who conceive of bowing before any image as the wrong kind of worship are also the kind more than happy to have a flag in church and rise for and salute it. Basically a lot Protestant thinking in this area is confused and not sensible.


#15

First of all let me say that I have corrected my fellow Protestants many times on this subject. The Catholic Church does not officially teach the worship of idols, saints or even the Virgin Mary. This does not mean that there are not many individual Catholics who do such things - but the Church has not teach this. The fact that some Catholics do not follow Catholic doctrine does not change said doctrine.

In the Protestant Evangelical churches we too have people who are in error. People who misunderstand and misstate Christian doctrine. The "positive confession" doctrine is an excellent example. This does not change our doctrine either.

Do we have significant differences? Absolutely. This is all the more reason for us to make sure we really understand what the other believes before we criticize it!


#16

[quote="dsfo, post:2, topic:277338"]
My experience in visiting Protestant churches and listening to what Protestants say against Catholics and the Catholic Church is that the former contradict themselves. They rail against the Rosary because it is reptitive prayer, yet many of their worship services include the practice of singing choruses over and over again. They criticize our veneration of the saints, yet they hold folks such as Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon in similar esteem. They say the Bible is their final authority, yet many of them will quote what their pastor says about something instead of what the Bible says. On a related note, some of them seem to come close to idolizing their pastors the way they accuse us of idolizing the pope. One of the saddest things about all of this is that Catholics who fall prey to anti-catholic proselytizing don't see the contradictions.

[/quote]

I once met a Baptist pastor and told how Catholics are wrong for having idols,etc,etc....blah,blah. So I asked him:

Where is your church located at? He said: on the corner of 5th and Rivers St. I replied:

Oh...is that the Baptist church with the Nativity scene? :dancing:


#17

Vince, Well said.

As a former Protestant and now a long time Catholic convert I am troubled by the divisions in Christianity. Not by the official divisions, but, rather, by the divisions that exist between Christian individuals of different denominations. As Bishop Sheen once said, "The problem is not what people know about the Catholic Church. The problem is what they know that isn't so." (Probably not a total word-for-word rendering).

The same can be said in reverse. We Catholics also have an imperfect knowledge of Protestantism. It would be good to have a better understanding and acceptance of each other's beliefs and why we believe the way we do....NOT, I hasten to add, to ignore differences....rather to understand both the reasons for our different beliefs and practices and the very many similarities.

Why do I think this is so important? First because it is clearly the will of Jesus that we work toward unity. Second, because what we believe should not primarily be defined in terms of what (we think) is wrong with other denominations. And, finally, because we are now faced with a number of real external enemies, not the least of which are secularism and radical Islam. It would make sense to pull together and leave the internal bickering to another time.

barbqman


#18

hello?


#19

When I posted my first response it was poor due to illness. Now I will explain.

I feel that many Evangelicals worship the bible as an idol. I was raised in and converted from an Evengelical/Fundamental sect that litterally woshiped the bible as an idol.

The unordained "preacher" would call the bible "God" in his long 3xs a week sermons saying "God says, in book, chapter, and verse", thus calling the bible "God".

Anything done in the church had to have permisssion from the bible. Thus things like organs, Christmas, Easter and Lent not commanded in the bible were "unauthorised" and forbidden.

This theology called "regulatory" worship was invented by John Calvin. Modern Presbyterians and Reformed abandoned it not too long ago, but it lives on with church of Christ, and very conservative Pres and Reformed.

To this day, church of Christ, ultra conservative Pres and Reformed worship accapella, some sing nothing but psalms.

It may be heresy to say this here, but conservative is not always the best choice.


#20

[quote="barbqman, post:17, topic:277338"]
Vince, Well said.

As a former Protestant and now a long time Catholic convert I am troubled by the divisions in Christianity. Not by the official divisions, but, rather, by the divisions that exist between Christian individuals of different denominations. As Bishop Sheen once said, "The problem is not what people know about the Catholic Church. The problem is what they know that isn't so." (Probably not a total word-for-word rendering).

The same can be said in reverse. We Catholics also have an imperfect knowledge of Protestantism. It would be good to have a better understanding and acceptance of each other's beliefs and why we believe the way we do....NOT, I hasten to add, to ignore differences....rather to understand both the reasons for our different beliefs and practices and the very many similarities.

Why do I think this is so important? First because it is clearly the will of Jesus that we work toward unity. Second, because what we believe should not primarily be defined in terms of what (we think) is wrong with other denominations. And, finally, because we are now faced with a number of real external enemies, not the least of which are secularism and radical Islam. It would make sense to pull together and leave the internal bickering to another time.

barbqman

[/quote]

With all due respect, unity should not be at the expense of truth. If the differences are not put out there, then there cannot be true unity. It would be a false unity. That is a big part of the problem today. Most Protestant faiths today (and I was a Protestant for 25 years) won't even discuss doctrine because they are afraid to. They know that if they hold to a doctrine that it will offend people and they will leave. Yet doctrine matters--the truth matters. People are making their own God the Father, God the Son (Christ), and the Holy Spirit into whatever they want them to be. That is why we now have non-denominational churches where the pastors aren't going to teach doctrine and people can believe whatever they want.


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