Protestant or No?


#1

The following is part of a Q and A on the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) website. What do you guys think?:
*
Q. Does the Lutheran Church consider itself part of the “Protestant” church?

A. The answer to your question depends on how the term “Protestant” is understood, perceived or defined. From a purely historical perspective, it is hard to disassociate Lutheranism from the “Protestant” movement, since the term itself arose out of the “protests” of those who supported Luther’s Reformation (against Roman Catholic political pressures) at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. Accordingly, many editions of Webster’s Dictionary define the term “Protestant” as “any Christian not belonging to the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church: in the 17th century the term was restricted to Lutherans and Anglicans.” If, however (as is often the case today), the term “Protestantism” is loosely or simplistically associated with various Reformed, Anabaptist or “fundamentalist” theological views, many of which do not correspond to what Lutherans believe and teach, then (obviously) the term would not be appropriately or accurately applied to Lutherans.*


#2

???


#3

I’m going to go ahead and agree with Webster on this one. I think Lutherans and these other groups can all be placed in the same category simply because they strongly agree on one thing; that the Catholic Church is wrong. Distinguishing their differences of opinion is why they have other names within the category of Protestant. I.E. Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, what have you.


#4

[quote=Bryan]The following is part of a Q and A on the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) website. What do you guys think?:

Q. Does the Lutheran Church consider itself part of the “Protestant” church?

A. The answer to your question depends on how the term “Protestant” is understood, perceived or defined. From a purely historical perspective, it is hard to disassociate Lutheranism from the “Protestant” movement, since the term itself arose out of the “protests” of those who supported Luther’s Reformation (against Roman Catholic political pressures) at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. Accordingly, many editions of Webster’s Dictionary define the term “Protestant” as “any Christian not belonging to the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church: in the 17th century the term was restricted to Lutherans and Anglicans.” If, however (as is often the case today), the term “Protestantism” is loosely or simplistically associated with various Reformed, Anabaptist or “fundamentalist” theological views, many of which do not correspond to what Lutherans believe and teach, then (obviously) the term would not be appropriately or accurately applied to Lutherans.
[/quote]

I think you have answered your own question. In truth there is no such thing as a Protestant “church”.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#5

[quote=Bryan]The following is part of a Q and A on the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) website. What do you guys think?:

Q. Does the Lutheran Church consider itself part of the “Protestant” church?

A. The answer to your question depends on how the term “Protestant” is understood, perceived or defined. From a purely historical perspective, it is hard to disassociate Lutheranism from the “Protestant” movement, since the term itself arose out of the “protests” of those who supported Luther’s Reformation (against Roman Catholic political pressures) at the Diet of Speyer in 1529. Accordingly, many editions of Webster’s Dictionary define the term “Protestant” as “any Christian not belonging to the Roman Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox Church: in the 17th century the term was restricted to Lutherans and Anglicans.” If, however (as is often the case today), the term “Protestantism” is loosely or simplistically associated with various Reformed, Anabaptist or “fundamentalist” theological views, many of which do not correspond to what Lutherans believe and teach, then (obviously) the term would not be appropriately or accurately applied to Lutherans.
[/quote]

There is no such thing as a Protestant “church”, because of the divided nature of Protestantism today. Thus, the Lutheran church is not part of the Protestant church, but rather it is a part of Lutheranism.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#6

This is like knocking on the chicken coop asking if there is a fox inside and hearing, “There’s no-one but us non-Protestants in here.” :smiley:

Scott


#7

Thanks guys, but there is something that Catholics think is the “Central Protestant Thought”, which isn’t true. And ContraFool, I’m sorry but you are wrong. The Lutheran Church does not proclaim the Catholic Church to be wrong. Like all churches, it has its differences with RC, but of all the “other” sects, it is the closest and has the best relations with RC.


#8

It’s downright silly to say that all who disagree with Catholicism are Protestants. The Orthodox are not Protestants. That should be the end of that particular discussion.

The LCMS website seems very sensible to me. It admits that Lutherans are Protestants, but it warns that the word “Protestant” is often assumed to include all sorts of ideas that don’t apply to Lutherans–denial of the bodily presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for instance. My particular bias is toward fighting that sense of the word “Protestant” rather than rejecting the title (I’m Anglican).

In Christ,

Edwin


#9

Not a doubt about it. Protestant as charged!:wink:

Still, protestants are Christian too, just like Catholics.:love:


#10

[quote=Bryan]Thanks guys, but there is something that Catholics think is the “Central Protestant Thought”, which isn’t true. And ContraFool, I’m sorry but you are wrong. The Lutheran Church does not proclaim the Catholic Church to be wrong. Like all churches, it has its differences with RC, but of all the “other” sects, it is the closest and has the best relations with RC.
[/quote]

Wrong? So Lutherans agree with the Catholic Church on everything now? They believe in Transubstanciation now do they? Funny, because I remember getting a lecture from a Lutheran minister about all the ways they disagree with Catholics, and my dad converted from being Lutheran because in that church he was taught that Catholicism was wrong and he didn’t believe that. It may not “proclaim” the Catholic Church to be wrong about everything, but it very much thinks it’s wrong about a LOT of things.


#11

Rather than bicker, let’s see if we can come up with an agreeable term.

How about “Splitters!”

JUST KIDDING! :smiley:

Seriously, would “non-Catholics” be acceptable?

Scott


#12

[quote=Scott Waddell]Rather than bicker, let’s see if we can come up with an agreeable term.

How about “Splitters!”…
[/quote]

Scott,

What about the word used in Scripture to describe those unloyal and unfaithfull to His Chruch and following false prophets - “SCHISMATICS”?


#13

[quote=Bryan]The Lutheran Church does not proclaim the Catholic Church to be wrong.
[/quote]

Worse than that! According to the overview (and some of the links) on the “Belief and Practice” page of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod home page (lcms.org/) the LCMS proclaims the following:
[list]
*]“Scripture alone” (i.e. the Bible is “the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine”)
*]LCMS congregations subscribe “unconditionally to all the symbolical books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God.”
[/list]These symbolical books include things like “…the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints…” (Augsburg Confession), and “…the Pope is the very Antichrist…” (Smalcald Articles)!

The LCMS is not the only Lutheran body that subscribes unconditionally to everything in the Book of Concord… the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America does, as well (elca.org/co/faith.html).


#14

[quote=Erich]Worse than that! According to the overview (and some of the links) on the “Belief and Practice” page of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod home page (lcms.org/) the LCMS proclaims the following:

[list]
*]“Scripture alone” (i.e. the Bible is “the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine”)
*]LCMS congregations subscribe “unconditionally to all the symbolical books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God.”
[/list]These symbolical books include things like “…the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints…” (Augsburg Confession), and “…the Pope is the very Antichrist…” (Smalcald Articles)!

The LCMS is not the only Lutheran body that subscribes unconditionally to everything in the Book of Concord… the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America does, as well (elca.org/co/faith.html).
[/quote]

Thanks, this supports what I said earlier: that the Lutheran church believes the RCC to be wrong and can therefore be grouped with other Protestant denominations.


#15

There is no question in my mind that Martin Luther was the first leader of the Protest Movement. His spawn were called the Protestants because they protested against the Roman Catholic Church.

Protest…Protestant. Luther was the founder of Lutheranism. So of course, The Lutherans are Protestants!

Do Lutherans have the Real Presence in Communion, do they have valid confession and do their Bishops have a line all the way back to St. Peter?


#16

That’s like saying that the Swastika used in Nazi Germany was the same symbolic swastika early Christians used.

Words change meaning…times change, things DO NOT always stay the same.

The definition of “protestant” has changed, why don’t you go look it up. www.m-w.com

-Bryan


#17

Speaking from a Lutheran/MS background, I was raised to revere Martin Luther and detest The Pope. Could have been my family’s position though. They were extremely anti-Catholic.


#18

[quote=Scott Waddell]Rather than bicker, let’s see if we can come up with an agreeable term.

How about “Splitters!”

JUST KIDDING! :smiley:

Seriously, would “non-Catholics” be acceptable?

Scott
[/quote]

non-Catholics would include non-Christians. I always thought that Protestant meant Christian, but not Catholic. Is that wrong?

God’s Peace~
Lisa


#19

[quote=Contarini]It’s downright silly to say that all who disagree with Catholicism are Protestants. The Orthodox are not Protestants.
[/quote]

Yes. If you read any of the threads about the Orthodox, they (some individuals) consider Catholics to be the first Protestants.


#20

Which is also silly. We should just drop all the attempts to be clever and profound and draw meanings from the word “protest” or whatever.

A Protestant is a member of any church which separated from the Western Catholic Church in the 16th century, or derives from or has been heavily influenced by such a church. End of discussion.

And yes, that means that we Anglicans are Protestants, no matter how un-“Protestant” our theology may be.

In Christ,

Edwin


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.