It seems this dude’s tactic is to throw walls of texts until something sticks.
Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32 … Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69 … Peter speaks for the apostles.
Acts 2:14-40 … Pentecost: Peter who first preached.
Acts 3:6-7 … Peter worked first healing.
Acts 10:46-48 … Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.
Jn 1:42 … Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
Mt 16:18-19 … "on this Rock … keys … bind … loose"
Is 22:22; Rev 1:18 … keys as symbol of authority.
Jn 21:17 … "feed my sheep"
Lk 22:31-32 … "Simon … strengthen your brethren".
Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5 … "vicars of Christ.
Mk 6:20; Lk 1:70,2:23; Rom 12:1; Act 3:21, 1 Cor 7:14; Eph 3:5; Col 1:22 … humans can be holy ("call no one holy").
The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 – He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 – you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 – we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 – though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 – Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?
The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 – there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 – avoid those who create dissensions
1Cor 1:10 – I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 – be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 – God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 – I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 – that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 – in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 – we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 – one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 – the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 – upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 – tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)
Jn 15:16 – Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
Jn 20:21 – Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-3 – Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18 – Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16 – one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17 – Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4:11 – church leaders are hierarchical
1Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 – identifies roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5 – commission for bishops to ordain priests
There is no such thing as Roman Catholic talking points, our perspective is from the Truth as established by Christ himself. The anti-Catholicism viewpoint taken by many protestants do not come from the Word of God but from man - they are completely wrong, they have been easily debunked and will continue to be easily debunked in the future. It’s based on what his indoctrination told him to say and not based on the Word of God.
Trust me, I have had these “debates” many times before and they are all the same. The same talking points, the same disingenuous references to history, the same misinformed lines about us “worshipping” Mary, etc.
The fact that he is still going on about this regarding purgatory tells me he hasn’t read a word of the references to it in the Word of God, nor is he interested in Googling and finding out more. Googling “Myths about the Catholic Church” will show plenty of information as well that he might want to read if he’s genuinely interested about learning more about the faith.
Perhaps the reason why he never will is he knows what he finds will make him lose this argument, which I think this is what it’s really all about.
It’s also interesting how there are 40,000+ Protestant sects. Does he think Jesus started 40,000 churches? Again illustrating the eternal danger of “personal interpretation” of the Word of God. And yet there remains only one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church, started by Christ himself in Matt 16:18.
When you’re dealing with this, all you need to do is plant seeds of doubt in their mind and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. It’s not really up to us to prove him wrong or make him change his viewpoints- if he is only trolling or trying to “win” an internet argument then it’s really not worth continuing. As Jesus said in Matthew 10:14 - “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.”
Your post here is the very reason you should not be spending so much time with these trolls. With all sincerity I know you think you are defending the faith but the very fact that this would even enter your mind shows me that you are not strong enough in your own faith and you need to spend less time with these trolls and more time here asking real questions.
That being said…Bad Catholics throughout history and even the ones still present in this very day don’t equate to the Catholic Church being wrong. Jesus tells us in Matthew 13 that the weeds will grow with the wheat. He doesn’t say leave the Church that has weeds He says let them grow together an He will separate them.
On a final note that picture comes from a time when entire countries where Catholic. Well guess what if the entire country is Catholic that means all of the criminals are Catholic as well.
You really need to take a break from those guys, it seems to me they are accomplishing exactly what they set out to accomplish.
Romans 15:7 Welcome one another, therefore, just as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
your speaking ill of the Vicar of Chris on Earth
Psalms 2 Why do the nations conspire,and the peoples plot in vain?2 The kings of the earth set themselves,and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.”4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;the Lord has them in derision.5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,and terrify them in his fury, saying,6 “I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.”
Psalm 105:15 saying, “Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm.”
speaking ill and making fun of the Pope is sin against the holy Spirit which will not be forgiven as he is the anointed of the Lord Matthew 12:3232 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
you claim to be a minister and accusing the Priest of the Lord and head of the Catholic Church ,bhy the fruits you will be known
1 John 4:20 Those who say, “I love God,” and hate their brothers or sisters,[[c] are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. 21 The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.
Since he seems to like pictures a lot - here is a picture for him And then tell him you’ll pray for him and leave it at that.
Rosie, I would respond to him that this part of his post was eye opening to you. You do see the danger. Tell him you are confused because you have a Pope telling you that he is guided by the Holy Spirit that gives him the correct understanding of scripture and now you have this guy on the internet telling you that he is guided by the Holy Spirit to give him the correct understanding of scripture.
Tell him the one thing you do know is that the Holy Spirit wouldn’t guide two people to different interpretations of scripture. Therefore, the only thing you are sure of, at this point in time, is that one of these two men is not really being guided by the Holy Spirit and only believes they are. I would finish up with asking him if he would be so kind as to give you definitive Biblical evidence that shows he was given the authority to pronounce the correct interpretation of scripture.
He will try to turn this into an argument against the papacy. DO NOT GO THERE!!! I repeat DO NOT LET HIM GO THERE!!! The truth of the papacy is a moot point here. WHY? Because his denying the papacy is based on his interpretation of scripture. Which is worthless unless he first proves that his interpretation is the authoritative interpretation given by the Holy Spirit.
So respond to him by saying I want believe your interpretation of these scriptures, against the papacy, but you still haven’t given me any Biblical evidence to believe your interpretation is the correct one. If we could take a step back and start with proving your authority it would be so much easier for me to understand what you are preaching.
PS…At this point he will more than likely have no response for you which I HOPE, will be the evidence that you need to show you that you are not going to get anywhere with this.
Ive sent over everyone’s answers this has been very educating for me also reading everyone’s responses I’m going to read them 2 or 3 times so they will stay in my brain for next time
And therein lies the rub. The reason why there is 40,000 Protestant denominations is that all of those denominations relied on their own personal interpretation of scripture and all were different. Scripture itself certainly has something to say about that.
2 Peter 1:20-21 - Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
And that we need an authority to understand the Word of God:
Acts 8:30-31 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
And that parts of scripture are difficult to truly understand:
2 Peter 3:15-16 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
The words “to their destruction” are very strong words condemning personal and private interpretation of the Word of God. Hence we see the anti-Catholicism talking points as a result. Unfortunately those 40,000 denominations are not doing any favors for the eternal souls of its members.
this wasn’t theology, this was politics. The English burned Joan of Arc at the stake because she was a symbol that the French rallied around in their war against the English. Prior to her intervention the English were winning the war. The English used religion as the excuse to execute her.
His new reply again has to be put in 2 parts
No no Mary was the mother of the flesh , Not of God she was the mother of the flesh in which he came through the line of King David … so is he in heaven calling King David great grandad??? Ofcorse not In the beginning was God not Mary , Mary is calling Jesus her Lord and saviour she is not “the queen of heaven”
Why not go directly to the person who can actually save you? Mary can’t save me in the slightest it was Jesus who Paid the price of my sins
Now the “she was a meditator”
Let me make the very very clear THATS BLASPHEMY UNTO THE LORD GOD 1st Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
Your right I never knew as much as I thought about the RC church because I wouldn’t be found dead saying such a thing that’s pure heresy
Mark 12:24 applies no better to you seriously I haven’t perverted a single scripture to what It means , you been quoting scripture and claiming it somehow speaks of pagan beliefs like purgatory , which it does not
Acts 22:1 “men brethren and farthers hear ye my defence which I make now unto you “
Where does that tie in with calling a man as a leader of a church Farther?
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
He wasn’t talking about the head of a church he was referring to Abraham as Farther from a biological sense that they were descendants of him and the “men brethren and farthers” he was talking to everybody else around again where does that tie with Calling the leader of church who is a mere man Farther?
That’s why Jesus said call no man Farther or master/teacher because that’s what the Jews were doing so yes Jesus did say don’t call no man Farther
Matthew 26:46-50 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother
So you have Jesus saying call no man Farther when speaking of the temple and church leaders but he also says we are all brethren in Christ again what part implies you should call your religious leaders Farther? because that’s what Jesus has a problem with that religious leaders had the title Farther rabbi teacher/master
You keep changing the context in which we are speaking it’s going from what I meant as the religious leaders call no man Farther then your changing it that the biological sense or expression is some how the same
Correct Errors ??? Sorry sweetness my God said he will preserve his word psalms 12:6-8 so the Catholic Church feel it’s okay to change or remove scripture they don’t like???
Are you quoting NIV?? If so explain why so many scriptures are missing
I know. But you gave them good answers and they’re not ready or willing to even consider them. Pray for them and move on. You’re job of witnessing is done. Pray that the Holy Spirit would move them to consider the truth . Stop engaging them. Take back any control that they have over you emotionally right now by leaving that thread . They don’t have any control over you that you don’t give them is what i mean by don’t feed the trolls.
Matthew 17:21: “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 18:11: “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 23:14: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.”
Mark 7:16: “If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 9:44: “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:46: “Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 11:26: “But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 15:28: “And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.”
Luke 17:36: “Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
John 5:4: “For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
Acts 8:37: “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Acts 15:34: “Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.”
Acts 24:7: “But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,”
Acts 28:29: “And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.”
Romans 16:24: “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
I John 5:7: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Dr. David Anders, Dr. Timothy Grey give excellent talks
in ‘places’ like youtube on the history of the reformation;
that has always happened to the people of God throughout
salvation history; like the history of Israel and The Church.
By listening to them in joy, without polemics or the propaganda
that started in the 1500s; it was eye opening. The reformation
started before Luther; and it was widely accepted the need to reform
abusive practices and such; but not the Divine Truth revealed
to the Church. An example of this was to take 7 Books and part
of others out of The Old Testament; The Holy Spirit revealed to The Church
which of The Old Testament; and Christian writings should be included
around 400 a.d. Mainly because they disagreed with ‘new’ doctrines being
put forth by the likes of Luther. He even called the Epistle of James,
and epistle of straw and wanted it removed from The Bible.
One of the main things is this; reformation should never scatter;
but gather. It is one thing to point out errors in practicing real truth;
people of God not being fed or abused; but it is quite another thing
to start a whole new ‘church.’ And now some would say that instead
of The Holy Spirit revealing the meaning of Scripture through the bulwark
of truth, The Church, anyone can do this; contrary to Holy Scripture itself.
Calvin had people arrested that disagreed with him; because he thought
he and other clergy can interpret Scripture and everyone else should just listen.
In that vain; since they couldn’t get The Catholic Church to conform to their
new doctrines (heresies); they claimed they would form the true one
Catholic Church. That did not happen, did it; instead this Christian faith
group or another claim; we are the true Biblical church or it doesn’t matter.
This scattering is one of the causes of the mass exodus of practicing any
formal Christianity we see today. The it doesn’t matter what religion you are;
or I have Jesus Christ but I don’t need religion trends. Yes, widespread immorality
happened throughout The Church, during the winter period of Church history;
that was around 1500. But that was the sin of people, not The Divine Revelation
that comes through The Church.
Dr. David Anders; a former Evangelical; was intensely interested in truth.
He learned that people leave The Catholic Church because they do not feel fulfilled
or fed. But converts, and reverts; come to The Catholic Church in search of the truth.
He says a lot of Parishioners, need to learn what The Catholic Church really teaches;
then less would leave. He, among other converts & reverts; learn so much Church
history in humility.
God didn’t protect her freewill from choosing evil. He allowed her to be born without the stain of Original Sin. She still had the freewill of any human. She freely chose to do the will of God for her entire life. She was in exactly the same state as Adam and Eve. They chose to disobey, she chose to obey. They could have made the same choice as Mary did.
He also said this
Could add more and why in the Old Testament when shadrach meshach and abednigo were cast in the fire why does it say a angel protected them? Because In the KJV it says there were a fourth man the son of man “Jesus” saved them
The Roman Catholic Church has authority to do jack
Oh so I can’t know scripture myself I need someone to tell me what it means? Seriously what planet are you from in cape able of reading scripture which I’m called to do so why do I need a guru to pep talk me into what he wants it to say and not accept exactly what it says?
I’m going to totally disregard the book of Maccabees as they were added to the Old Testament by the Roman Catholic Church and not kept in the Torah (Old Testament ) by the Jews
All them short quotes doesn’t mention purgatory your twisting it and trying to imply it speaks of purgatory but never does mention it I could go through each and everyone but I’d be here for hours
“Paul prays for dead friend” No he prayed for his household and he prayed that God would of taken care of him nothing of purgatory was implied nor was he praying to him
“Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” I agree I’ve been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ is that not enough for you? Because it’s by far plenty for me
You are getting scripture to try say something it doesn’t no logical person would say that’s what God is talking about unless they were filled with garbage and told what it means rather then just believing what’s said and if it’s not said then why believe it
“Truth” No it’s weird how I can pick and choose all day about what the RC church does that doesn’t add up with scripture and then all I hear is “you need someone to tell you what it means” Nah Gods word is my authority
This is obviously not going anywhere I’d blame it on pride I would believe it if the bible said it but it simply doesn’t so I think it’s through pride why you are willing to agree with anything but what it actually says maybe you were brought up Roman Catholic and why your views are so strong because no person coming to the faith would choose what man said the bible means verses what it actually says and that’s the lense I see it at the end of this discussion I think you believe in a different Jesus because it’s not the Jesus I read of through scripture that gives glory to Mary (Isaiah 42:8 I will never give my glory to another) or a Jesus that redeemed his church in order for a Pope to take glory to be called “Holy Farther” and that he has the power to do blessings or whatever that’s just what I got from this
Not once have I rejected actual scripture but I’ve rejected the words you added to it , but you’ve straight up rejected any scripture I’ve provided or said it doesn’t mean what it says but it needs to be interpreted and I find that mind blowing how you have so much faith in man to tell you what scripture says then Farther actually read what’s being said
Just my take on what I’ve got from this I hope and want nothing more then you to read scripture and take it how it is ,
Dr. Scott Hahn knowing the Catechism puts it this way;
The Holy Spirit cleanses us from the mud;
but prevented Mary from getting muddy her whole life.
She was saved by The Merits of Jesus Christ in a similar
way to anyone from The Old Testament are saved.
They can’t sin either by the Grace of concupiscence
being purified from them. Mary was made pure from
concupiscence by The Grace of God. She had no tendency to sin.
She was given this by Divine not Merited Favor; to be a pure Ark
of The New Covenant; for her salvation as well as everyone else’s.
She could not have been made pure by her own power;
but her freewill did always cooperate with God’s Grace.
See this is what happens when we try to follow our own reasoning.
Did this guy really just deny the incarnation?
This isn’t something new this is the 4th century heresy called Arianism…
Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.
Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.
This exact heresy is what brought about Mary as the Mother of God. If Mary is just the mother of the flesh then that is only possible if Jesus was born a man and then became divine after He was born.
It’s simply logic is Jesus God? Yes or No?
Is Mary Jesus’ mother? Yes or No?
Complete nonsense. Mary is the mother of God, as Jesus IS God. If he’s denying Mary is the mother of God then he is denying Jesus is God and cannot possibly call himself a Christian.
Ignore the red herring. The same thing can be found in any version of the bible, NIV, KJV, New American, Latin and so on.