Protestant said praying to Mary isn’t in the bible


#121

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2.The same was in the beginning with God. 3.All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4.In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5.And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.”


#122

Yet, it is. Even in the OT


#123

@Rosie11

Did all sin? Except Jesus and Mother Mary

Luke 1:28 Hail full of Grace, the Truth(Jesus).

Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you waver,O faithless daughter? (Eve and we her children) For the Lord (Heavenly Father) has created a new thing on the earth:a woman(Mother Mary sinless ) protects a man.( Jesus)” John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. was it not? and how did Jesus come the chosen women Mary who was found to be in Grace.

repent ?understand Proverbs 8:22 The Lord(Heavenly Father) created me (Mother Mary) at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth—26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil.27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,so that the waters might not transgress his command,when he marked out the foundations of the earth,30 then I (Mary) was beside him, like a master worker;and I (Mary )was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.34 Happy is the one who listens to me (Mary)

Isaiah 66; 7 before she was in labor she gave birth; Before her pain came upon her she delivered a son.8 who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be delivered in one moment? Yet as soon as Zion (Mother Mary) was in labor she delivered her children.9 shall I open the womb and not deliver? Says the Lord; shall I, the one who delivers, shut the womb? Says your God.

Genesis 3:15 15 I will put enmities between thee(satan) and the woman(Mary), and thy(satan and wicked people ) seed and her seed(Jesus and we Catholic and those who respect and honor her ): she(Mother Mary) shall crush thy(satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her(Mother Mary) heel.

Both Eve and Mary were approached by an angel (with Eve, a fallen angel lucifer ); doubt crept into Eve’s heart, whereas Mary’s faith was steadfast,Pure in fullness (see Luke 1:45). Eve participated in the downfall of the first Adam, just as Mary participates in the victory of her Son, the New Adam (see Luke 2:34-35). In the words of the early Fathers, “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s faith.” and because she in union with Jesus in spirit 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

,Psalm 129:5 May all who hate Zion( Mother Mary) be put to shame and turned backward!
Psalm 137:5 If I(God) forget you, O Jerusalem(Mother Mary), let my right hand wither!


#124

I’m Catholic, and I do believe ’ Kecharitomene’ used by Luke inspired by The Holy Spirit is properly interpreted as having been filled with grace in the context that it was used.
__
But isn’t this related to some philosophical/theological arguments that God had to allow our freewill to choose evil allowing such heartbreak and horror in the world?
Doesn’t this explanation of the problem of evil fall short in light that The Blessed Virgin Mary had freewill; but was protected by Grace from doing evil.
There must be more to the explanation of the problem of evil.


Just a thought. It is no wonder that many people, like myself, while we believe the fullness
of truth is revealed through The Catholic Church; it is a mystery why didn’t God, being all powerful, all knowing, seeing everywhere (ominipresent) did not prevent all evil by creating everyone full of Grace. We can speculate, but this is mysterious. God is all powerful, and could create freewill beings who would never choose to do evil; but that is not what happend
in our plane of existence.


#125

Rosie11 - I’m intrigued where you get the interjections of Mary from? Are they scriptural? Certainly the first one seems to be more about Jesus than Mary and I’m sure the Jewish nation would have something to say about your interpreting Zion as Mary.


#126

I think that the issue of Mary’s sinlessness is more a philosophical decision made by the Catholic Church, as is her Assumption. There are a lot of theological debates on the issue of Theodicy (the problem of pain). Caputo talks of the weakness of God in that after the death of Christ, Christ is with us in our weakness.
Some believe that Adam and Eve were not fully adults and so acted rashly in their decision not to do what God told them. One has to wonder why God told them not to do something when for most of us that just makes the desire to do it stronger.


#127

By the first one do you mean Jeremiah?


#128

Sorry I meant the Proverbs quote


#129

Jesus wasn’t created so I maybe not.


#130

@IsaiahSpirit

Sirach 15:11 Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”;for he will not do what he hates.12 Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”;for he had no need of a sinful man.13 The Lord hates all abominations,and they are not loved by those who fear him.14 It was he who created man in the beginning,and he left him in the power of his own inclination.15 If you will, you can keep the commandments,and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.16 He has placed before you fire and water:stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.17 Before a man are life and death,and whichever he chooses will be given to him18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord;he is mighty in power and sees everything;19 his eyes are on those who fear him,and he knows every deed of man.20 He has not commanded any one to be ungodly,and he has not given any one permission to sin.13 because God did not make death,and he does not delight in the death of the living.

Wisdom 1:13 because God did not make death,and he does not delight in the death of the living.14 For he created all things that they might exist,and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,and there is no destructive poison in them;and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.15 For righteousness is immortal.

Wisdom 2:23 for God created man for incorruption,and made him in the image of his own eternity,
24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world,and those who belong to his party experience it.

Thought the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of grace she used her free will not to sin and maintained grace and increased it by her prayers and penance by uniting with the the Lord as in 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him, unlike Adam and Eve who choose to sin who where in the state of grace. Mother Mary being the Mother of God, How much more powerful will be, her intercession before God .AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul.


#132

There are even prophecies that seem to be direct descriptions of Mary, for Zion (originally the fortress of king David) or the new Jerusalem are often magnified to such a point that they receive a supernatural glory. These cities are not only synonyms for the people of God or Israel, but especially of St. Mary.

For example: after the Last Judgment, salvation history comes to an end with the phase of revival, which consists of the creation of a new sky and a new earth (Rev 20:11-21:1). The continuation, that is to say, the transition to eternity, must be understood as an eternal peace phase similar to the one that normally inaugurates a new cycle. This eternal phase is also inaugurated by a phase of apparition, that is, by the descent of the luminous and brilliant new Jerusalem designated as the Bride of God (Rev 21:2; 21:9-27).

During the next phase, God the Spouse comes to settle in the new Jerusalem (Rev 21:3), which corresponds to the phase of arrival – not only of the Spirit but of all Trinitarian Persons. This is why there is no longer a temple, as in ancient Jerusalem, for “its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb” (Rev 21:22), who will reside in the new heavenly Jerusalem forever (Rev 22:3-5).Another shout of joy was expressed when Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem on a young donkey (Lk 19:28-40), which is announced by Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king comes to you. Triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey.” This time, Zion is identified to “the multitude of the disciples” whose shout of joy was: “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” (Lk 19:37-38). There were some Pharisees in the crowd who did not approve and wanted to hush the disciples. Yet Jesus answered them: “I tell you, if these are silent, the very stones will cry out” (Lk 19:39-40), which shows that prophecies do not exist in order to be prevented but to be realized.


#133

It doesn’t solve the problem of evil. These describe that we chose evil.
The problem of evil means that God is All Powerful; therefore God has the Power
to Create beings with freewill who will not choose evil;
God is all knowing; God has the Power to see what will happen if God let’s our
freewill choose evil and prevent us from doing so, like God did for Mary;
God sees everywhere - some describe this as omnipresent is everywhere.
And some go further; God is Benevolent and All Loving;
so knowing beforehand what would happen if God let freewill choose evil,
then God would prevent things like treating children brutally or in other unspeakable ways.
It is not an easy problem. God says, My Ways are so far above yours as the Heavens
are above the earth; so God has a Perfectly Loving Benevolent Reason;
but it takes trust, like a child trusting a parent when the child doesn’t understand
all the things the parent understands.
My idea on this is that we are in a temporary plane of existence - still being created;
and what we see as a very long time - this ‘Valley of Decision,’ is God letting souls
see the effect of evil, yet letting their freewill choose to exist with the wisdom of obedience,
which gives harmonious living in The Presence of God; with one another.
It is part of ‘the war in Heaven,’ between the obedient Angels and the disobedient rebellious Angels. Life vs. anti-Life. We hover between existence in Life with God,
and animated Death - existence with the devil - (I don’t think their are coincidences
in Providence lived spelled backwards is devil; Jesus says to these, ‘I never knew you.’
they choose not to be created, but live apart from God in anti-creation. But there is no
opportunity for things like pleasure seeking there; just a narcissistic loneliness. )
This is what I think; it is how I grapple with the immense helpless suffering;
especially the unearned suffering in children.


God through Grace - Divine not merited favor
prevented Mary from sin. According to the Teachings of The Church,
she had no concupiscence; and the Grace of maintaining that state
whatever she had to do to cooperate with this - is part of Grace;
was infused into her during her whole life.
Dr. Scott Hahn puts it this way - The Holy Spirit prevented her from getting dirty.
It is a mystery as to why he didn’t do this for Adam and Eve
and everyone else.


#134

Yes,god is in-charge of everything and only he can solve evil ,we humans messed it up as said in Ecclesiastes 7:2929 Behold, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many devices.

Everything is a gift of god but as said in James 1:17 Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.But Mary did the will god and full cooperated with his plan ,which non of us could do it ,As the Heavenly Father also gave to our first parents Adam and Eve who sinned it was like a storm which ruined their lives God gave a Hope of Mother Mary and promised salvation and restoration of Grace in Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy (satan’s children =wicked people, anti-Christ ) seed and her (Mary) seed (Jesus and Christians): she shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. John 9:31 says we know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace, found favor with God Lk 1:42 – Elizabeth: “most blessed among women” Lk 1:48 – Mary: “all generations will call me blessed” Mother of God Lk 1:43 – Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm
she is our Mother in the order of grace

[967] By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” ( typus )510 of the Church.

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter Heaven, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. But when Jesus is born she had to be without Original Sin a pure vessel to contain Jesus in the womb … Lord Jesus (GOD) had to be born in a women who is sinless.

“A papal statement on Marian coredemption would deepen our understanding of Mary’s role as the New Eve who collaborates with her Son, the New Adam, ‘in giving back supernatural life to souls,’” he added, referring to the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium.

“The Co-Redemptrix title never places Mary on a level of equality with Jesus Christ, the only divine Redeemer, as to do so would constitute both heresy and blasphemy,” the Association stated in a press release announcing the request.

“The Co-Redemptrix title is meaningless without Jesus the Redeemer, and in itself focuses upon the Cross of Jesus Christ. Mary Co-Redemptrix proclaims to the world that suffering is redemptive when united to the sufferings of Christ.”


#135

Not so Mother Mary being the Mother of God, How much more powerful will be, her intercession before God .AS she was born without original sin and she was sinless throughout her life, who bore sufferings, being Holy, assumed into Heaven Body and Soul ,in John 2:2-5 My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” .Thus even thought it was not the appointed time and note many places in the Bible Jesus done everything on the appointed time as per the will of God, but Through her intercession she quickened the miracle and everyone’s surprise and everyone glorified Jesus and they believed John 2:11 Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
If Enoch and Elijah who were born sinners and led a life of penance, but yet was assumed into Heaven, Genesis 5: 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him. 2 Kings 2:11 How much more the Mother of God born without the original sin and lived a holy life, will she not be in the heaven praying for all of us Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.”. Luke 1:45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be[a] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.” Psalms 118:23 This is the Lord’s doing, it is marvelous in our eyes. Hope you find the Truth.

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Mother Mary is without a single stain of original sin, throughout, so being the Mother of God, who is full of Grace, is most powerful intercessor , before God to prayer for us, we sinners. The Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth and testifying about Mother Mary.

Blessed Mother, makes it very clear whom to obey? Jesus and He make it very clear whom to obey Mother Mary,did He not? He gave his last treasure(all the Graces,secrets of the Kingdom of God is Hidden in the Immaculate Heart of Mary. LK 2:19,51) to the Church as St John as a Apostle and representing all of us, read and understand ? follow His instructions?

Jesus He did the will of the Father and fulfilled His promise ,His mission,role,did He not? Jesus said it is Finished only then, He fulfilled and finished His most important mission of His life, the will the Father, by entrusting Mother Mary to the Church did He not ? Women behold your Son . “Behold, your mother!” Its a commandment ,lets Obey and finish our mission by doing the will of God.God Bless


#136

I think philosophical assumptions are being used again. The verse in Corinthians is about sexual immorality and says that anyone who joins themselves to the Lord is one Spirit with Him. This could equally be interpreted as any follower of Christ.


#137

Again philosophical assumptions about Mary. It’s all in the interpretation and Psalm 118 can be interpreted as referring to Christ (see the previous verse). I have no problem in thinking that Mary was a very special person and chaste, but whether she should be venerated I’m not so sure. However this is not a debatable point since the Catholic Church has decided these matters to be doctrine whether they are literally true or not.


#138

Yes, God solves evil.
But your answer only describes that we chose evil; with Grace, according to Tradition
only choosing to protect Mary’s freewill from concupiscence.
We are living as God; always Light (goodness) — separates & teaches Light from darkness.
Darkness always existed as a potential in the mind of God; but never in actually.
So as we are still being created in the image and likeness of God in what we call ‘space-time-matter’
our plane of existence - we can choose to be part of Light, exist; or darkness.
How can God give us a choice? By showing the result of choosing evil; that any disobedience
sends shock-waves of consequences; (Adam and Eve)'s choose to decide good v. evil by themselves;
the forbidden fruit - by the spirit of darkness - the liar - resulted in murder when Cain slew Abel.


#139

The God you describe sounds remarkably like a dictator rather than a loving Creator
Would you as a loving parent, create tricks to treat your children’s love for you? Would you as a loving parent condemn your child to a hellish existence?


#140

New reply

I’ve genuinely never talked to you in my life but i will say this I admire your faith not your doctrine I love the fact you have so much faith in what you believe in and I’m not insulting you I’m simply explaining your beliefs aren’t biblical and if we both claim to believe in the bible then what’s the harm in seeing if scripture supports it

I’ve not bare false witness to anyone I could talk forever of the scandals within the church but i much rather see if your doctrine lines up with scripture

Jesus is the king of Kings and I’m truly glad you acknowledge It and I love you for it :heart:,

I’m not here for debates I just am here to let you know most beliefs you hold are man made tradition and not inspired by the word of God , and I can gladly prove it

I’ve spent hours looking on RC websites to see what they say to objections like the rosary isn’t in the bible and they never do use scripture to provide a case to why they do it ,

all I can do is try call out error when I see it if you don’t want to hear it then so be it but I don’t want it to come across that I have a hatred of any kind towards you or any people in the RC church as even half my family are from it but I do hate the doctrine because it promotes things that were never in the bible


#141

Another person has got involved


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