Protestantisms Proof Text(s)?


#1

Did Martin Luther ever use a verse of scripture to justify his starting denominationism?

Or, where in the Bible can you find the verse that justifies starting your own church if you decide you don’t like the teachings of the church you’re in?


#2

Luther got the idea if you disagree with the church, you can make your own. Hence, we have thousands of Protestant sects with different doctrines. They just keep on splintering just as long as there is a disagreement amongst them…


#3

I don’t know if Luther used these. They are the ones I would use.

“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
(2 Corinthians 6:17)

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
(Revelation 18:4-5)

But I do believe that Luther was forced out by being ecommunicated.


#4

SyCarl

I don’t know if Luther used these. They are the ones I would use.

Quote:
“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
(2 Corinthians 6:17)

**And now IN context:
14 Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore, Go out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing:
18 And I will receive you; and I will be a Father to you; and you shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
**

Quote:
I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
(Revelation 18:4-5)

**Again, IN context:
1 And after these things, I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power: and the earth was enlightened with his glory.
2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen; and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and the hold of every unclean and hateful bird:
3 Because all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth have been made rich by the power of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities.
**

But I do believe that Luther was forced out by being ecommunicated.

Actually, HE chose to leave when he started with his own personal theology. He was given ample opportunity to realize his mistakes and repent but untimately, he refused and had to be excommunicated.


#5

Luther was not “forced” out - he tried to force his new theology on the Church and refused to recant, thus excommunicating himself. That’s one of the big misunderstandings about excommunication. It’s not what the Church does to a person, it’s what the person does to themselves by continuing in their false beliefs.


#6

That is not historically or accurately what happened, Manny, nor was it the “idea” he “got.”


#7

The expanded quotations does not change the meaning of the passages. They would still be verses saying to depart from those who have departed from the truth, which is what Luther believed the Catholic Church had done. Early Protestants believed the Roman Catholic Church to be the woman on the beast in Revelation and the Pope to be the anti-christ. These verses would tell them to leave.


#8

Ah, but the Church herself never departed from the original deposit of faith given to them by Jesus and His apostles. Men within the Church did, to be sure, and the Church was in the process of taking care of such things, just not apparently fast enough for Luther.

One doesn’t reform a marriage by filing for divorce.


#9

One simply has to read the Catechism Martin Luther wrote to have a clear view of what happened. It is nothing but a mile long rant against the Church and the Pope. Go look for yourselves and tell me if this looks like the writings of a sane, loving person.

P.S. If you deny the Pope, you surely must deny his usurper. Anybody that writes a Catechism means to start his own church.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=585


#10

He had at least one foot out the door long before then.

Many people both before his time and since then have been excommunicated, without then deciding to start up a whole new religion. Most of them take up a life of prayer and try to repent of their sins, to be able some day to return to the Church - and those that don’t normally just stay home and sulk.

The Church had a perfect right to not be expecting him to invent his own religion after being excommunicated, because that’s just not the normal reaction.


#11

The first expanded quote definately does change from what you implied. Vs. 14 starts off talking about “the unbelievers” of which the Church was not, and never has been.
Some current protestants still believe that the Church is the woman on the beast…with nothing to truly back them up…just an opinion on their parts. Same is true for them thinking the Pope is the anti-christ, again with nothing to truly back them up. The verses they give need alot read into them in order to make these claims.


#12

The Orthodox deny the pope. Hmmm. :confused:


#13

It wasn’t always that way–such is the nature of schism. :frowning:


#14

True, to some extent, but the Orthodox didn’t change the basics of the faith. Praise Be to God!


#15

Since he didn’t start denominationalism, this is irrelevant. Denominationalism is an anachronistic concept applied to Luther.

Edwin


#16

How can it be irrelevant since he started the first church to break away from the church of Jesus. The example that he started has created protestantism and the 30,000+ other denominations that all use the Bible as their sole rule of faith. Hasn’t this created the “Whore of Babylon” with all of theses interpretations of scripture from the one book. It appears as if the un-holy spirit is guiding the protestants to their varied interpretations from the one book. Of course their many, poor translations, short a few books, bible doesn’t help either.

Remember, the protestant bible lacks Wisdom.


#17

How does the view of another schismatic group aid your cause?

There have always been schismatics and heretics who have hived off from the true faith. Wesley split off from Anglicanism when the Church of England refused to send help to America that he requested. In true Protestant fashion, he simply “ordained” some men on his own and the Methodist Church was born.

However, if you are so enamoured with the Orthodox and want to hold them up to us as pillars of virtue and all that is right with the Church, perhaps you’d care to discuss their seven sacraments and the validity of their priesthood which they have maintained by true Apostolic Succession. You don’t have seven sacraments, do you?

Moreover, as a Methodist pastor, you are not a successor of the Apostles, and for all your study and good intentions, at the end of the day, you have nothing but empty sacraments and your own opinions of the Word of God to offer “your” flock.

Be honest with yourself, Luke…are you absolutely sure that what you preach is the truth? When you lie in bed at night in the dark, how do you know that the sermon you have prepared is sound?

How do you know for sure?

And why do the Lutheran and Baptist pastors in town disagree with you concerning infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, etc.?

If you are all men of God seeking to “shew thyself approved workmen of God”, why has your study of the “Bible Alone” led you all to such divergent conclusions about central doctrines?

:nope:


#18

He may not have forced all the horses out of the barn, but he sure as shootin’ opened the door…a fact even he regretted:

On Doctrinal Divisions - the “Fruit” of Sola Scriptura

“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament [Real Presence], another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.” (De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.)

“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” (Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:


#19

He may not have forced all the horses out of the barn, but he sure as shootin’ opened the door…a fact even he later regretted. He wrote:

“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament [Real Presence], another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.” (De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.)

“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” (Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.)


#20

I didn’t think the Orthodox denied the Pope. Don’t they still consider him a Bishop of the Church?

They just don’t recognize him as the authority over all the Church. Instead, they recognize the authority of all the Bishops together, which would include the Pope.

Is that correct?


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