Protestants are def not Cathoilcs


#1

some people seem to imply on here that Protestants maybe Catholics–um no!!! Protestanism is a heresy people=----wake up!!! it is a little different in that most Protestant churches have valid baptism, but none the less it is a heresey–u wouldnt argue that jehova’s witness are Catholic or Mormons are Catholic–granted, they dont have valid baptism as Protestants do, but they like Protestants they deny clear Cathoilc beliefs and claim to be Christian-- i am not suggesting Protestans arent Christian) Protestansbelief in faith alone --we dont–they believe the Blessed Mother sinned and had children–we dontReal Presence-Priesthood, need i go on??? Now there maybe put Protestans whoa re invicibly ignorant, although in my opinion i think this is difficult, but there maybe and they can be saved but only through the Catholic Church—i think alot of us just dont want to face the fact that Protestants may go to hell for being outside the Church so we want make up stuff or stretch doctrine sow e can see Protestants go to heaven—MISTAKE- MISTAKE- MISTAKE-


#2

Maybe you could change the name of the thread to:
“How to make sure Protestants never become Catholic.”


#3

I don’t think you have the mind of the Church on this issue. I think you could benefit from a careful reading the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio


#4

Protestants are in ‘a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church’ (see below)

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324


#5

Would the explanations in the Catechism about who is Catholic, or who may be considered Catholic, or whatever it is trying to say, be the first explanation of it’s sort, especially to show up in a Catholic catechism?

If so what are we to make of the first 1950 years of warnings that “Outside the Church there is no salvation?”

If this catechism is the first we have heard of it, do we just embrace this new teaching and consider that the Church up to this time just wasn’t intelligent enough to understand what the doctrine really meant?


#6

Keep in mind that Faith is a gift freely given by God’s grace. We do not obtain it by our own study. But our own study and reflection on scripture does prepare the way for the acceptance of the Faith.

I may read the DaVinci Code and understand the agruments made, and still not agree with them. (In fact, that would be quite reasonable!)

Likewise, the fact that a Protestant is familiar in a general way with Catholic doctrine does not mean that he is necessarily convinced by our apologetics. God must give that grace. And only God gets to decide who goes to heaven or hell.

We do know that the Church is instituted for the salvation of all, and all who are saved are saved through the instrumentality of the Church, whether they realize it or not.


#7

some people seem to imply on here that Protestants maybe Catholics–um no!!! Protestanism is a heresy people=----wake up!!! it is a little different in that most Protestant churches have valid baptism,

An “-ism” has no soul to save or loose. Persons do!

Persons who are members of an heretical or schismatical “-ism” can NOT be saved BECAUSE of that “-ism” - but in SPITE OF it - due to their membership in the Catholic Church - even though they are unaware of their membership. That is explained in the 1899 document HERE, AND in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church teaches that non-Catholics and non-Christians may also be unknowing members of the Church AND be saved - see Fr. Brian Harrison’s article, published by Catholic Com on Muslims: Muslims Worship the One True God

On the other hand, membership of the Catholic Church is NO GUARANTEE of personal salvation - it is not an automatic get-out-of-hell pass.


#8

If so what are we to make of the first 1950 years of warnings that “Outside the Church there is no salvation?”

To be deliberately “outside the Church” - KNOWING that the Church IS the Ark of Salvation and freely rejecting membership or continued membership constitutes grave matter, knowlegde of the seriousness, and free will.

One who is ignorant of being “outside” or who is unaware of the gravity or does not deliberately will to be “outside” is not culpable - and therefore, may still be “inside the Church” unwittingly and therefore “saveable”.


#9

The teaching has never changed, some people at various times have decided to give it their own personal slant and some indeed, such as Fr Feeney have had to be disciplined by the Church for it.

‘And so it is with the theological slogan, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Latin for “outside the Church, no salvation”). This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, one that’s found in every age of Catholic history, and it’s held to by the Church’s best and most influential minds. Understood properly, its dogmatic truth is beyond question. The problem arises, however, when this slogan is given a life of its own. And so it was in the 1940s with Fr. Leonard Feeney.’

envoymagazine.com/backis…coverstory.html


#10

I don’t know why everybody is so hard on Fr. Feeney. He was just going along with the Church Fathers. I think it’s just ecause the sees of modernism were sufficiently sown in the 1940’s enough to make him a whipping boy. What did he say that was so different from this quote from Pope Pius IX?:

"in our times, many of the enemies of the Catholic Faith direct their efforts towards placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or confounding it therewith; and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions. But quite recently — we shudder to say — certain men have not hesitated to slander us by saying that we share in their folly, favor that most wicked system, and think so benevolently of every class of mankind as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life. We are at a loss, from horror, to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.

"We love, indeed, all mankind with the inmost affection of our heart, yet not otherwise than in the love of God and our Lord Jesus Christ, Who came to seek and to save that which had perished, Who died for all, Who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; Who, therefore, sent His disciples into the whole world to preach the Gospel to every creature, proclaiming that those who should believe and be baptized should be saved, but that those who should not believe should be condemned.

“Let those, therefore, who wish to be saved, come to the pillar and the ground of Faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which, in her bishops and in the Roman Pontiff, the chief head of all, has the succession of apostolical authority which has never been interrupted, which has never counted anything of greater importance than to preach, and by all means to keep and defend the doctrine proclaimed by the Apostles at Christ’s command.” (Allocution to the Cardinals held on December 17, 1847)

From this conviction, every non-Catholic should draw the practical conclusion to become a Catholic. For when there is a question about eternal salvation and eternal damnation, a sensible man will take the surest way to Heaven.


#11

just out of curiosity - can you give some examples of people implying that protestants are catholic? i see instances of people saying that protestants may be saved, but i haven’t read anything yet that implied, to me at least, that they were catholic.

can you help out?


#12

We do know that the Church is instituted for the salvation of all, and all who are saved are saved through the instrumentality of the Church, whether they realize it or not.

This is a wonderful ‘translation’ of ‘no salvation outside the Church’. The very existence of the Church is evidence of God’s plan of salvation for all souls, regardless of the categories they belong to. If anything, the mentality of the Church is so overwhelmingly open to ALL people, that it doesn’t distinguish its work from the work of God Himself, for only God is good and only God can guide us in grace to commincate his love and salvation to others.
Protestants are saved through the Catholic Church, even though they may reject it on some levels because they adhere to the Church’s written tradition, the Bible. The Church has declaired many many times that the Bible contains material sufficient data for salvation, that is, in it is found the question ‘how can I be saved?’ and the answer of course is Jesus Christ.

I partly blame the western idea of classification for the confusion. We simply must categorize people. It’s a shame really, because as stated above, we think people are ‘isms’ and that ‘isms’ are what matters (or don’t matter).
People have many reasons for why they are or are not ‘Catholic’, but I’d have to say that, for the most part, Catholics themselves are and have been the biggest stumbling block for non-believers and protestants. I mean, who wants to belong to an institution that actively abused its authority, burned heretics and witches, and faught bloody battles and performed strange acts of charity like the funding of St. Peter’s Basillica by selling Indulgences?
The scandals of the Church are many, and they DO affect people’s perception of the Church. Are they over-reacting? In my opinion, yes, because Christ already warned us the Church would undergo trials and that it would not be totally perfect…that is why Christ had to continually remind the Apostles that He would always be with them - there would be no reason for that statement unless Jesus knew it would be a hard road. Besides, protestants could never compare their lives to Catholics and expect to look any better…that would be, um, not only totally erroneous but terribly presumptuous if not totally irrelavent becuase, we are not saved by works or ‘living a good life’ are we?

Grace comes to us from God through his Church, not a ‘book’ - the ‘book’ tells us this!

Peace.


#13

[quote=Argus]Would the explanations in the Catechism about who is Catholic, or who may be considered Catholic, or whatever it is trying to say, be the first explanation of it’s sort, especially to show up in a Catholic catechism?

If so what are we to make of the first 1950 years of warnings that “Outside the Church there is no salvation?”

If this catechism is the first we have heard of it, do we just embrace this new teaching and consider that the Church up to this time just wasn’t intelligent enough to understand what the doctrine really meant?
[/quote]

“Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus” first appears in the mid-third century, in St. Cyprian in the West; in Origen in the East there is a similar train of thought.

There is no contradiction of the past - but there has been a paradigm shift in the Church’s approach. As understood at present, EENS is being integrated into the broader formula, “Outside Christ, No Salvation” - this is far more adequate, as the International Theological Commission paper which mentions this points out. (Before someone pounces on the fact that the authors are theologians, and so must obviously be “liberals” & “modernists”, and therefore damns the paper without reading it, it should be said that this paper has been approved by Cardinal Ratzinger.)

The reason the newer formula is preferable, is this: it sets the Church’s self-understanding - of which EENS is one detail - in the context of her understanding of the mystery of Christ; instead of letting EENS remain isolated from the rest of the “hierarchy of truths” - because it can easily be distorted if it is taken in isolation: which causes endless confusion.

A lot depends on what the Church thinks is and is not compatible with theological thinking about her identity. She is always learning - she has to, if she is to evangelise, worship, or teach. And EENS is affected by what the Church thinks about subjects other than the theology of the Church. The only way to avoid change, is to be outside time and space. ##


#14

[quote=marineboy]some people seem to imply on here that Protestants maybe Catholics–um no!!! Protestanism is a heresy people=----wake up!!! it is a little different in that most Protestant churches have valid baptism, but none the less it is a heresey–u wouldnt argue that jehova’s witness are Catholic or Mormons are Catholic–granted, they dont have valid baptism as Protestants do, but they like Protestants they deny clear Cathoilc beliefs and claim to be Christian-- i am not suggesting Protestans arent Christian) Protestansbelief in faith alone --we dont–they believe the Blessed Mother sinned and had children–we dontReal Presence-Priesthood, need i go on??? Now there maybe put Protestans whoa re invicibly ignorant, although in my opinion i think this is difficult, but there maybe and they can be saved but only through the Catholic Church—i think alot of us just dont want to face the fact that Protestants may go to hell for being outside the Church so we want make up stuff or stretch doctrine sow e can see Protestants go to heaven—MISTAKE- MISTAKE- MISTAKE-
[/quote]

They are not Catholics, but they are connected to the church in some way. They may be invincibly ignorant, that is between them and God. They recieved the bible from the church and it is the Church’s job to try to educate them on the faith and bring them all into the Church.


#15

[quote=kepha1]Maybe you could change the name of the thread to:
“How to make sure Protestants never become Catholic.”
[/quote]

:rotfl: I might have been offended, but I read your post and it brought a smile to my face. Thanks.


#16

As a former protestant I take offence. Why? I love being Catholic this gift of Faith has been the best thing my children and I could have recieved from the Lord.You have to understand that MOST protestants have been told lies about Our Church,Lies that came down generations. Just to be open to finding out about the Catholic Faith is a major leap for them.The thread post is rather hateful. I know that some of them go in for an attack when they come here.But are you going to act in an uncharitable manner because of them?God Bless You-do unto others:tsktsk:


#17

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]As a former protestant I take offence. Why? I love being Catholic this gift of Faith has been the best thing my children and I could have recieved from the Lord.You have to understand that MOST protestants have been told lies about Our Church,Lies that came down generations. Just to be open to finding out about the Catholic Faith is a major leap for them.The thread post is rather hateful. I know that some of them go in for an attack when they come here.But are you going to act in an uncharitable manner because of them?God Bless You-do unto others:tsktsk:
[/quote]

Was that written to me Lisa?


#18

[quote=michaelp]Was that written to me Lisa?
[/quote]


#19

No, Michael, that was written to the person who started the ugly thread. I think he looked at a couple of anti-Catholic posters and went on a rampage. It was just uncalled for.But, no It wasn’t you.God Bless You


#20

just out of curiosity - can you give some examples of people implying that protestants are catholic? i see instances of people saying that protestants may be saved, but i haven’t read anything yet that implied, to me at least, that they were catholic.

can you help out?

Here are my 2 cents worth:

When any person is validly baptized he/she immediately becomes a Catholic - a member of the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth.

Once a Catholic always a Catholic! However, of course, there ARE shades: good practising, fallen away, schismatic, heretical, etc. All are sinners in some way at some time(s) in their lives and are required to work hard for their salvation. But the character of Baptism is imprinted on the soul.

ALL who are in Heaven (whether they have attained their salvation here on earth as Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, Islamics, Bushmen, etc.) ARE in Heaven and ARE there Members of Christ’s Mystical Body in Heaven.

How many were Catholics, Orthodox…Bushmen is unknowable to us. Who can fathom God’s Divine Mercy? But, whatever they were here on earth - in Heaven ALL are Catholics.


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