I have come up with a conclusions in some of your theology or concept what is needed for salvation.
I know some of you adhere to the doctrine of OSAS. I know Catholic are taught to obey all the commandments of God.
Yet, from Protestants who insist OSAS. I feel that the obeying the commandments is not required and that faith is all that is needed for Protestants. It doesn’t matter if you sin because you are saved.
Wouldn’t it be contrary to the teaching of Jesus Christ not to obey all that he commanded us to do?
In my personal opinion, not being obedient to the Commandment which Jesus Christ told us to obey would be very dangerous for one’s soul.
So is obedient to the Ten Commandments necessary for you?
I understand not all Protestants believe in OSAS so for those Protestants, this thread does not apply to you. You can debate though.
Very often when I come up with a new amazing argument that completely destroys Protestantism, I find that my initial views were incorrect and what I believe them to hold true is not the case at all.
This is the case in your post. My discussions have been mainly with Presbyterians (Calvinists), and I believe that they would say “if you are truly saved, then you won’t disobey the 10 commandments. If you do disobey them, that is just a sign that you aren’t truly saved.”
You could be or you could be right. Protestantism is so diverse thus making it impossible to make blanket statements. The Presbyterians do not hold some of the OSAS views of fundamentalist Christians. The OP has a valid post and I too would like to hear answers… God Bless
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
The gospel of the Kingdom preached by Christ did teach adherence to the law. But Paul received the revelation of the mystery. That salvation will come to the Gentiles and all through faith:
Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Paul was given the dispensation of grace as stated in Ephesians 3:2.
Commandment keeping is not necessary for salvation under the dispensation of Grace. Christ taught commandment keeping under the gospel of the Kingdom.
However the suggestion that Christians do not care about sinning because we are saved is repugnant.
Is any form of obedience whatsoever necessary for salvation in the normative case (that is, ignoring deathbed conversions, etc)? To put it on a more concrete level, is any form of obedience necessary for your salvation?
Wouldn’t you be ignoring Jesus commandment? Let me go straight from the Scripture itself from Jesus’ own words.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.**
Mark 10:18-19:As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’" **
For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
If these commandments which Jesus taught us is no longer valid, doesn’t it seem contrary to the Bible? I can quote more but it will flood the forum. But many times in the NT, Jesus taught obeying God’s commandments. He told us to love God with all our heart, our mind, and to love our neighbor.
If the commandments are not necessary, then I don’t have to obey them… because I am saved…
One of my recent posts was about …if the Lord’s prayer is one-time deal.
The post was to ask protestants why they pray the Lord’s prayer and ask God not to lead them into temptation because most (not all) believe that once they believe and have faith in God they will be saved.
I still don’t know why they pray the Lord’s prayer. So far, I haven’t got the answers from any anyone except one person.
First of all - we cannot be saved through obeying the commandments…
Galatians 2:16 KJV 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But…in scripture…we are told that one who is in Christ WILL keep or observe the commandments…not as a means of our salvation but because we are saved.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
John 14:21 KJV 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 KJV 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Why do we love Him…because He first loved us. And because we love Him, we obey Him and his commandments. God has also given us of His Spirit and we are being sanctified through the Word and by the power of the Spirit. We do not keep the commandments to be saved…we do because we are saved; because we have received His love in salvation and love Him and obey Him in return.
*]Simon Peter professed that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the Living God" (Matt 16:16, cf. Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20, John 6:68-69).
*]This revelation was given to him by God (cf. Matt 16:17) and Simon proclaimed it in the presence of the Apostles (cf. Matt 16:13-20, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 9:18-21, John 6:66-71).
*]St. John the Evangelist wrote in Scripture: these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)
*]We can determine, then, that Simon, because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, had life in the name of Jesus. We can call the state of having life in Jesus as “salvation” or “being saved”.
*]We can also infer that certain other disciples (specifically the Apostles, who did not abandon Jesus at Capernaum (cf. John 6:59-66)) had this same belief, which was professed by Simon and verified by Jesus (because God had revealed it, and God does not lie (cf. Prov 30:5, Titus 1:2), and were thus saved as well.
*]Shortly after this profession of faith, Simon was rebuked by Jesus for attempting to suppress the will of God for Jesus (cf. Matt 16:21-23). This constituted sin on Simon’s part.
*]Simon declared that his faith in Jesus would never be shaken, and that he would not deny Jesus. However, when questioned after the arrest of Jesus, Simon denied Jesus three times. (cf. Matt 26:31-75) This was a further incident of sin by Simon.
*]If Simon, once saved, was always saved, he would not have lost faith in Jesus and sinned as he did, denying Jesus.
*]Simon regained his faith in Jesus after the Resurrection, as can be attested by the accounts of the Resurrection, the Acts of the Apostles, and his two epistles.
*]Judas betrayed Jesus to the Pharisees and other authorities. After the arrest of Jesus, he repented but took his own life. (cf. Matt 27:3-5) It is very unlikely, then, that Judas had the faith in Jesus that Simon had and lost and regained.
*]A chief difference between Simon and Judas is that Simon, although he faltered, endured to the end (cf. Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19, Acts 14:22, Col 1:23, 1 Tim 4:16, 2 Tim 2:11-12) and thus was saved, whereas Judas despaired despite his repentance and took his own life.
*]In conclusion, although Simon was saved by his profession of faith, he had to persevere to the end to remain saved.
I love God’s law and seek to follow His ways every day. I fail at times and I go to the Lord for forgiveness in sincerety and in truth. What the scriptures DO NOT say is that we obtain salvation through the commandments/law. That is the clear message that I presented from God’s Word a couple of postings up. I delight after the law in the inward man as Paul says…His grace has shined upon me and I love His law…BUT…it is not my means of salvation and if it is yours…you have made the cross of Christ of none effect.
Galatians 5:4 KJV 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
First you say that you “love God’s law and seek to follow His ways every day”. Later you say “I keep [the commandments] because I am saved”. But in between, you admit that you “fail at times”. If you keep his commandments because you are saved, why do you fail at times despite being saved? Is it a quality of the saved that they sin – that is, are we saved from our sin or in our sin?
These failings… these are sin, no? Which is why you “go the Lord for forgiveness in sincerity and in truth”. You would not ask forgiveness for that which is not a sin, so again, these times when you fail to keep the commandments of God are sins. Thus, breaking the commandments of the Lord constitutes sin and requires forgiveness.
But it does not follow, as you said above, that if we can lose our salvation by failing to follow the commandments of God, that we “can gain salvation by following the laws”. Rather, we remain saved by our adherence to every word that comes from the mouth of God, which is a manifestation in our lives of our faith in Jesus Christ, what St. James describes as “works” (James 2:14-26): not works of the law (which Paul says are not a path to salvation) but the works which Jesus asks of us to do because of our faithfulness to him.
We gain our salvation only through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord, and that, only through the grace of God. But there are myriad ways to lose our salvation, which is why Jesus and Paul remind us time and time again that we must endure to the end (cf. Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19, Acts 14:22, Rom 2:5-8, Col 1:23, 1 Tim 4:16, 2 Tim 2:11-12).
You are baptized in[to] the faith of the Church (cf. CCC 1282). When a child is baptized, his parents and godparents declare his faith (cf. cf. Rite of Baptism for Children, 18.1.b). When an adult is baptized, he is asked and answers, professing his faith: After professing in living faith Christ’s paschal mystery, they come forward immediately to receive that mystery as expressed in the washing with water; upon their professing faith in the Holy Trinity, the Trinity, invoked by the celebrant, acts to number the elect among the adopted children of God and to make them part of the people of God. (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, 31, cf. 15, 28, 30)
Baptism itself is an act of the faith.
*]Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). (CCC 183)
*]Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16). (CCC 1281)