Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

He does not need to give a caveat it is understood by the audience that they need to live righteously.

I think it abundantly clear, the audience didn’t understand anything. :hmmm:

Howie, I just noticed my mistake, I did not realize from the excerpt Jerry had posted that this was Jesus speaking. Whoops. But don’t get any ideas, I still think OSAS is heretical. :smiley:

It is abundantly clear that they did not understand the “real presence”, but surely they understood that they needed to be righteous as per their own scriptures.

Hello everyone,

For those who want to continue this discussion, I have started a new thread - Part II

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=318140

You’re trying to pull stigmata out? What saints? Saints that the Catholic church canonized? Scripture tells us that we are ALL saints. Not every action is of God. God could not watch as His own Son was being beaten and broken, but you think that God would inflict that kind of pain on someone? I feel that the Catholic church places undue necessity on Mary and the ‘infallibility’ of the pope. And I will not apologize for my opinion on this. I am speaking from scripture, so if anything I have said seems harsh to you, research scripture. Compare what the catechism teaches to what scripture teaches.

So you deny the tremendous good and miracles not only recorded by the Church but by others outside of the Church of Catholic saints? Even if you were to say that all were Saints you would lump yourself with the likes of a St. Francis or a St. Anthony of Padua, or a St Padre Pio, and a Blessed Mother Theresa? What have you done (to serve and love Jesus) to deserve such a title, I am interested?

P.S. please go to the thread (with the same title) opened by Alway for him, to reply to my post.

JosieL

you said:
So you deny the tremendous good and miracles not only recorded by the Church but by others outside of the Church of Catholic saints? Even if you were to say that all were Saints you would lump yourself with the likes of a St. Francis or a St. Anthony of Padua, or a St Padre Pio, and a Blessed Mother Theresa? What have you done (to serve and love Jesus) to deserve such a title, I am interested?

Does your church teach that all those in Christ are saints? I mean, do they consider all those belonging to the Catholic Church (which you say is the true church) are saints?

I seem to be unclear as to what it teaches as I’m hearing they believe what we believe what the bible says defines a saint and then in another sentence, it seems your saying it has something to do with works.

I’m not trying to say that works has no part in salvation, for we know that works is our faith in aciton, so don’t think that.

Thanks.

i’ve interpreted this thread and one thing is for sure some of us stand on the promise of God while others rely on what they can do to secure their salvation. i just don’t understand how if God gives us this gift of eternal life which implies we did nothing to deserve it then how can one do something to keep it?

the yoke that has been placed upon you all is a quite heavy and Jesus offers rest so that one can have life abundantly and free from the law. this is not to imply like some have misquoted me, that one has free ticket to sin. if one has truly repented and trusted in Christ alone that person doesn’t have to lean on His understanding but lean on the Rock of salvation.

throughout these forums i see how one in reading the promises of God still won’t stand by them and yet when an apparition appears and supposedly gives a message they stand on that promise negating what Jesus has said, ‘I am the way, I am the truth and I am the life.’

people put more emphasis on a brown scepular and the promise mary gives that if worn that person will not suffer eternal damnation but yet when the Lord says, ’ this is the will of the Father that not one will be lost,’ it is not significant.

well this thread here deals with the interpretation of Scripture and i’ve stated that when man interprets chances are he is error but if the Holy Spirit who guides to all truth will teach us. ask for wisdom when reading Scripture (james 1:5) and God will grant you what you ask cause He wants to reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him.

trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation after all He paid a high price for our sins on the Cross of Calvary. their is no other way but to receive this incredible gift.

God bless you
Love in Christ

Originally Posted by MrS
Only the Catholic Church is the direct link to the human writers of the NT, those who actually wrote it, heard it, and were taught the OT too.

MrS, surely you understand that THE REASON that God had them put it into a book was to ENSURE that it would not get diluted and changed from that which was orally spoken and what literally took place.

THAT is why, the WRITTEN word is WEIGHTIER than the oral teachings. It is the oral teachings WRITTEN DOWN, I know you agree with this.

Why then are we talking about the oral? For the writings of those oral teachings are there for us to see, to study to be our guide against error.

The first church MrS you claim is your current catholic church. I strongly disagree. Along the way, teachings contrary to scripture have crept in that look exactly like antique pagan worship.

But even still, do you believe that the means by which God provided His Holy Word are completely exempt from introducing error AFTER? For the teachings and doctrines that are contrary to scripture were indeed introduced AFTER.

You are right to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church, the true body of Christ, indeed it will not. For the body of Christ holds to the original teachings that have been formed into a book we call the Bible. Your added doctrines and dogma with their pagan origins HAVE NO place within the true body of Christ, of whom the Holy Spirit leads and continues to lead into perfect truth and unity. This includes sincere catholics and all sincere believers who love God.

To Jerry:

i’ve interpreted this thread and one thing is for sure some of us stand on the promise of God** while others rely on what they can do to secure their salvation**. i just don’t understand how if God gives us this gift of eternal life which implies we did nothing to deserve it then how can one do something to keep it?

Jerry, I just want to say. We had to have a savior, sinless to shed his blood that we might be united with God once more.

The following scriptures prove that eternal life can be lost:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam surely died. he fell from God’s grace or favor; and he lost the eternal life he possessed and could have kept forever, if he had not sinned.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Lev 18:28 That the land spew not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

Deu 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
Deu 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Once saved people perished in sin.

Num 25:1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
Num 25:2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
Num 25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Num 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Num 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.
Num 25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
Num 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
Num 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Num 25:10 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Num 25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Num 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
Num 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

to be cont.

Wrong again, Jerry. Spoken like a true ex-Catholic whose ignorance led to his abandonement of the truth.

We must cooperate with God’s grace - or lose it:

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

To Jerry:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them (that follow me) eternal life; and they (that follow me) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them (that follow me) out of my hands. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them (that follow me) out of my Fathers hand” (John 10:27-29)

The scripture above gives eternal security and eternal life to all who follow Christ, and nothing to them that do not follow Him and do not hear His voice, that is, obey it, and heed what He says. To claim the benefits promised means nothing if we do not literally and daily hear His voice and follow Him. Note that the passage simply states that no ‘man’ that is, no other human can pluck a person out of the hand of God; but, if a person sins, God, Himself has the right and can pluck and truly does pluck such a sinning person out of His own hand, for He is Holy and cannot tolerate sin.

“Every branch IN ME (being in Christ makes one a new creature and a holy branch, 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom 11:16) that beareth not fruit HE TAKETH AWAY (not taketh to Heaven or be laid on the shelf)…he is cast forth as a branch, and IS WITHERED; and men gather them and CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE, and THEY ARE BURNED” John 15:1,2,6

To teach from this passage that all men are “in Christ” is to teach that all men are “clean” for to the same men He said, “ye are the branches…Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3,5) The same ones that were “branches” and were “in Christ” also had Christ in them (John 15:4-7). This statement could never be made of sinners, for Paul said, “Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates” (2 Cor.13:5) and “if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness” Rom.8:9,10)

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS…the end of those things (committing sin) IS DEATH…For the wages of sin IS DEATH” (Rom. 6:16-23)

“Through their fall, salvation is come to the Gentiles…if the fall of them be the riches of the world…how much more their fulness?..For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?..because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear. For if God spared not the natural branches (elect Israel when they sinned) take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness; IF thou continue in His goodness: OTHERWISE thou ALSO shall be CUT OFF. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in AGAIN…so all Israel shall be saved” again Rom.11:11-32)

“I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM HIM (Christ) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel” (Gal. 1:6-7)

“If I build again the things which I destroyed (gave up for Christ), I make myself a transgressor,” (that is, I will revert back to the old life of sin and be lost again) Gal.2:18)

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE” Gal. 5:4. (This shows how one can fall from grace)

to be continued

[quote=elvisman]Wrong again, Jerry. Spoken like a true ex-Catholic whose ignorance led to his abandonement of the truth.

We must cooperate with God’s grace - or lose it:

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"
[/quote]

You’re citing a parable that’s related to the Great Tribulation of Israel, and not with personal and individual salvation. :shrug:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

You make the same mistake.

Paul begins the chapter with this question: God has not rejected people, has He? May it never be! The context again is national Israel.

If you’re going to use the promises made to Israel for doctrine, then you must use the whole story of Israel; namely respecting Israel, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (v29).

Individual salvation is assured.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

Here, you’re confusing justification with sanctification. Justification is effected by once-for-all faith. The believing sinner has already been made perfect by God while yet sinning (10:14). Sanctification can be difficult for some rebellious humans, and therefore, impeded, but justification is sure—those He justified, HE ALSO glorified (Rom 8:30).

There were uncommitted, unconverted Jews in the group being addressed who were ready to desert and return to Judaism. The exhortation given above does not pertain to those who were committed and converted, as v39 makes perfectly clear: But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, BUT of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

V22 sets the context. A dog is a dog, and a pig is a pig, both do what their natures’ dictate, and that exposes them for what they are—false believers (v1). But, the converted believer is a changed person, with a new nature united to Christ (Col 3:3).

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

The will of the Father for men is that they should repent (Acts 17:30). All of those who truly repent are converted and justified by God, and those He justified HE ALSO glorified. :shrug:

HI Christian1, you would have to go further back to understand why I wrote what I did, but it began with a comment that JesusFreak posted. He implied that we Catholics do not put Jesus first. I found this to be deeply insulting as I know and have read of many saints, who are/were deeply in love with the Lord and served him all their lives. My intent was to remind JesusFreak that although he may take issue and judge our doctrines he has no right to say we do not put Jesus first. He refused to apologize or reflect on the harshness of his words which for me suggests he is prideful and mean-spirited. Truth if that is what he wishes to pursue, is not to be brandished like a club and used to clobber unsuspecting CHRISTIAN Catholics.

WRONG**.**
You speak and quote out of context like so many other Protestants because if you read the Scriptures in context, you would have no choice but to be Catholic.


First of all, regarding Romans 11:22, St. Paul is using the Story of Israel as a warning. Notice, he says about those who don’t remain in his kindness, **“otherwise you, too will be cut of.f” REMAIN is the operative word here. You can’t remain in his kindness if you weren’t there to begin with. God is not stupid and can’t be fooled.

**As for Acts 17:30, the will of the Father is that they ****SHOULD **repent - but they don’t always repent.


**Matt. 7:21 says **"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” – NOT the one who simply believes. Don’t forget – even the demons in hell believe. (Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, James 2:19)


When taken in context – the whole of St. Paul’s letters don’t preach guarantees. They preach that we can have a moral assurance of salvation, provided that we cooperate with God’s grace.
Just as God is not a monster, who sends people kicking and screaming into hell, he is also not a cosmic rapist who forces his love and presence on us. Those who choose separation from God, get it – and those who cooperate with and accept God’s love, choose the eternal rewards promised by god.


The Church understands this, as did Paul who said: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).


**Paul also tells us in Romans 5:2 that “we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God” – the HOPE of going to heaven. Salvation is something we HOPE for – not something that is guaranteed.

He goes on to say in Romans 8:24, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?"**

[quote=elvisman]WRONG.
You speak and quote out of context like so many other Protestants because if you read the Scriptures in context, you would have no choice but to be Catholic.

First of all, regarding Romans 11:22, St. Paul is using the Story of Israel as a warning. Notice, he says about those who don’t remain in his kindness,“otherwise you, too will be cut of.f” REMAIN is the operative word here. You can’t remain in his kindness if you weren’t there to begin with. God is not stupid and can’t be fooled.
[/quote]

If your going to use Israel for doctrine, you must use all of her history, not just selective, out-of-context cherry picking, such as you’re engaging in, IMO.

God called Israel for no special reason. God kept Israel even when they rebelled and apostatized. God kept Israel even though they crucified His Son. God kept Israel even though they were cut away from the vine and Gentiles were grafted in. God promises to save Israel in the end (Is 66:7-9; Zech 12:10-13:1) so that even their disobedience will exalt His mercy (Rom 11:32).

Just as God has remained faithful to undeserving Israel, so will He be faithful to undeserving believing sinners. God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come to Him through Christ (Jn 6:37; 17:2).

God’s promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and be guaranteed to those who have faith (Rom 4:16). Justification is assured when one believes. Those who think justification can be earned or maintained by human faithfulness nullify God’s grace and His promise of eternal security. Anyone who counts on attaining and preserving justification can have no assurance.

[quote=elvisman]As for Acts 17:30, the will of the Father is that they SHOULD repent - but they don’t always repent.
[/quote]

Right you are.

[quote=elvisman]Matt. 7:21 says "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the willof my Father in heaven.” – NOT the one who simply believes. Don’t forget – even the demons in hell believe. (Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, James 2:19)
[/quote]

Actually, if you continue reading the passage, you’ll find those who Christ never knew are those who plead their works for justification (v22). :shrug:

[quote=elvisman]When taken in context – the whole of St. Paul’s letters don’t preach guarantees. They preach that we can have a moral assurance of salvation, provided that we cooperate with God’s grace.
[/quote]

Moral assurance? Paul doesn’t preach moral assurance.

[quote=elvisman]Just as God is not a monster, who sends people kicking and screaming into hell, he is also not a cosmic rapist who forces his love and presence on us. Those who choose separation from God, get it – and those who cooperate with and accept God’s love, choose the eternal rewards promised by god.
[/quote]

That’s an old, hackneyed appeal to emotion. :rolleyes:

[quote=elvisman]The Church understands this, as did Paul who said: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).
[/quote]

C’mon, Paul is speaking rewards (v18).

Moses is a prime example of one who was disqualified from finishing the race, but still reaped the benefits of eternal life. Paul’s not speaking of justification in that passage—he knew his citizenship is heaven (Php 3:20).

[quote=elvisman]Paul also tells us in Romans 5:2 that “we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God” – the HOPE of going to heaven. Salvation is something we HOPE for – not something that is guaranteed.
[/quote]

Biblical hope is a confident hope based upon the promises of God; it’s not a hope-so-hope, based upon a moral assurance.

BTW, what is a moral assurance, elvisman? (Bet it has to do with your works.) :slight_smile:

Moral assurance entails living according to God’s Word and ensuring we do this till the end.

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