Protestants: Is Mary Highly Favored?


#1

It has been argued before that in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as "highly favored" rather than "full of grace."

Leaving aside the proper translation of the Greek word 'κεχαριτωμένη' (kecharitomene) is there really a distinction between "highly favored" and "full of grace"? I would argue that there is no distinction as this word is used only to describe Mary, and Luke goes on to write that she has indeed found favor with God.

Keep in mind, this was an angel of God sent to greet Mary with news about our Savior, so please don't try to argue that "highly favored' is akin to an evangelical preacher telling you that "Jesus loves you."

(Catholics - feel free to disagree with me as well. Does it weaken the argument that Mary was sinless if the Blessed Mother was greeted as "highly favored"?)


#2

She is unique among all women as the Mother of God; I would consider both "highly favored" and "full of grace" as accurate.


#3

[quote="Stilldreamn, post:2, topic:279279"]
She is unique among all women as the Mother of God; I would consider both "highly favored" and "full of grace" as accurate.

[/quote]

Seems other protestants want to split hairs and prefer "highly favored" to "full of grace."


#4

I agree with Stilldreamn and I'm a Baptist.

If she was highly favored as the Bible says it follows that she also had God's grace upon her.


#5

[quote="Stilldreamn, post:2, topic:279279"]
She is unique among all women as the Mother of God; I would consider both "highly favored" and "full of grace" as accurate.

[/quote]

How could the Holy Theotokos not be both "highly favored", and "full of grace"?

Jon


#6

[quote="mrsdizzyd84, post:4, topic:279279"]
I agree with Stilldreamn and I'm a Baptist.

If she was highly favored as the Bible says it follows that she also had God's grace upon her.

[/quote]

Ahh... the sweet smell of Ecumenism. I like it.


#7

[quote="stewstew03, post:1, topic:279279"]
It has been argued before that in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as "highly favored" rather than "full of grace."

Leaving aside the proper translation of the Greek word 'κεχαριτωμένη' (kecharitomene) is there really a distinction between "highly favored" and "full of grace"? I would argue that there is no distinction as this word is used only to describe Mary, and Luke goes on to write that she has indeed found favor with God.

Keep in mind, this was an angel of God sent to greet Mary with news about our Savior, so please don't try to argue that "highly favored' is akin to an evangelical preacher telling you that "Jesus loves you."

(Catholics - feel free to disagree with me as well. Does it weaken the argument that Mary was sinless if the Blessed Mother was greeted as "highly favored"?)

[/quote]

Let us not put aside Kecharitomene and let us not put aside that the angel of the Lord greeted Mary as "Full of Grace". Not as flattery, which Mary clearly would reject, but as proper title.

Let us also not put aside that every protestant effort is placed on "alternative" translations. [Highly favored]...please. How does that distinguish Mary from any other woman called to be the Theotokos (another Greek term) - maybe we'll put that one aside also in favor of "mother of a highly loved being from the Godhead."

Let us shine the light of Truth that came from the Catholic church since it's conception on the less than adequate terms favored by protestants of all denominations.

Kecharitomene, Aeitparthenos, Theotokos / Gratia Plena, Sine macula Concepta / Mater Dei.

Whether in Greek or in Latin - shine the true light and not the dim one.


#8

=perro sarnoso;9137383]Let us not put aside Kecharitomene and let us not put aside that the angel of the Lord greeted Mary as "Full of Grace". Not as flattery, which Mary clearly would reject, but as proper title.

Agreed

Let us also not put aside that** every** protestant effort is placed on "alternative" translations. [Highly favored]...please. How does that distinguish Mary from any other woman called to be the Theotokos (another Greek term) - maybe we'll put that one aside also in favor of "mother of a highly loved being from the Godhead."

Let us shine the light of Truth that came from the Catholic church since it's conception on the less than adequate terms favored by protestants of all denominations.

Kecharitomene, Aeitparthenos, Theotokos / Gratia Plena, Sine macula Concepta / Mater Dei.

Whether in Greek or in Latin - shine the true light and not the dim one

Either you missed the lutheran responses, or you are stating that you do not believe Lutherans to be protestant. The latter is ok by me. ;)

Jon


#9

Full of Grace is an affirmative, since when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, She was full of Grace as the Word become flesh in Jesus. All Grace passed though Mary.


#10

[quote="JonNC, post:8, topic:279279"]
Agreed

Either you missed the lutheran responses, or you are stating that you do not believe Lutherans to be protestant. The latter is ok by me. ;)

Jon

[/quote]

:) don't distract me Jon, I'm on a roll.:D


#11

Wellll the Episcopal Church at least in High Church traditions Mary is important. She's not venerated as much as she is in the RC Church.

Now when you get down to the various low church and Evangelical traditions like mine; Mary is just the mother of Jesus and symbolic of the Virgin Birth. That's about it.

I know big contrast :eek:


#12

And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb

And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

And Mary said, "My soul does magnify the Lord",

For he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, "behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed"


#13

[quote="perro_sarnoso, post:7, topic:279279"]
Let us not put aside Kecharitomene and let us not put aside that the angel of the Lord greeted Mary as "Full of Grace". Not as flattery, which Mary clearly would reject, but as proper title.

Let us also not put aside that every protestant effort is placed on "alternative" translations. [Highly favored]...please. How does that distinguish Mary from any other woman called to be the Theotokos (another Greek term) - maybe we'll put that one aside also in favor of "mother of a highly loved being from the Godhead."

Let us shine the light of Truth that came from the Catholic church since it's conception on the less than adequate terms favored by protestants of all denominations.

Kecharitomene, Aeitparthenos, Theotokos / Gratia Plena, Sine macula Concepta / Mater Dei.

Whether in Greek or in Latin - shine the true light and not the dim one.

[/quote]

I don't disagree with you.

Still, if a protestant translates the verse as Mary being "highly favored" - I fail to see the distinction between "you are highly favored by God (and have been highly favored by God) so I will send an angel to greet you" and "you are full of grace." In other words, their mis-interpretation of the Greek text does not change Mary's standing with God. No other person in the NT finds favor with God in the way that He favors Mary. What is the state of being highly favored by God if it is not being in a state of God's full grace?


#14

[quote="stewstew03, post:13, topic:279279"]
I don't disagree with you.

Still, if a protestant translates the verse as Mary being "highly favored" - I fail to see the distinction between "you are highly favored by God (and have been highly favored by God) so I will send an angel to greet you" and "you are full of grace." In other words, their mis-interpretation of the Greek text does not change Mary's standing with God. No other person in the NT finds favor with God in the way that He favors Mary. What is the state of being highly favored by God if it is not being in a state of God's full grace?

[/quote]

I would tend to agree. To me, either translation is fine. I don't think the argument in favor (no pun intended) or her having been sinless or sinful is either bolstered or weakened by the translation of Luke 1:28. Without getting into the details of Greek, there are other uses of kecharitomene in the New Testament that certainly do not mean sinlessness on the part of the recepient (Eph 1:6 comes to mind).


#15

[quote="perro_sarnoso, post:10, topic:279279"]
:) don't distract me Jon, I'm on a roll.:D

[/quote]

:D That's better than being on a biscuit. :p

Jon


#16

Well whatever happened I wasn't there. Whatever Mary was subjected to of this world I would assume God forgave Her. She was certainly covered by Gods hand while She was here.

Seems to me God placed her above all the choirs of Angels and Communion of Saints. A covenant by God which some Angels completely disagreed with.

And they approach and greet Her as we see in Luke with respect. For that was and is the Lords will.

Simple things which seem clear to me. I have no beef with God on this one. Pretty sure he thought a whole lot of Joseph also.


#17

[quote="IggyAntiochus, post:14, topic:279279"]
I would tend to agree. To me, either translation is fine. I don't think the argument in favor (no pun intended) or her having been sinless or sinful is either bolstered or weakened by the translation of Luke 1:28. Without getting into the details of Greek, there are other uses of kecharitomene in the New Testament that certainly do not mean sinlessness on the part of the recepient (Eph 1:6 comes to mind).

[/quote]

Regarding Eph 1:6, I don't think anyone would dispute that Mary's grace was freely given to her by God.

As Catholics, we believe that all grace comes from God and that He is not a miser with His grace. We also refuse to believe that Mary and her son, Jesus, were ever opposed to one another. Jesus is God. If at some point she had ever been separated from God as a result of her sin, then she would've also been separated and opposed to her Son.


#18

[quote="stewstew03, post:17, topic:279279"]
Regarding Eph 1:6, I don't think anyone would dispute that Mary's grace was freely given to her by God.

As Catholics, we believe that all grace comes from God and that He is not a miser with His grace. We also refuse to believe that Mary and her son, Jesus, were ever opposed to one another. Jesus is God. If at some point she had ever been separated from God as a result of her sin, then she would've also been separated and opposed to her Son.

[/quote]

Sorry if I didn't state my point clearly enough. I'm not arguing that Catholics believe her grace was not freely given. My point was that in Eph 1:6, kecharitomene is used. This doesn't mean that the grace freely bestowed on us makes us sinless. Neither would it indicate that in the case of Luke 1:28. That's only to say that it's largely irrelevant to the discussion of her being sinless based on either "highly favored," or "full of grace" for the translation.


#19

[quote="IggyAntiochus, post:18, topic:279279"]
Sorry if I didn't state my point clearly enough. I'm not arguing that Catholics believe her grace was not freely given. My point was that in Eph 1:6, kecharitomene is used. This doesn't mean that the grace freely bestowed on us makes us sinless. Neither would it indicate that in the case of Luke 1:28. That's only to say that it's largely irrelevant to the discussion of her being sinless based on either "highly favored," or "full of grace" for the translation.

[/quote]

Ah, okay thanks for clarifying Iggy.

I would contend that there is no scripture that is irrelevant.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Furthermore, I think an exegesis of Luke 1:28 would be highly relevant to a discussion of Marian doctrine.

The problem as I see it is that protestants go out of their way to distance themselves from Catholic dogma by interpreting kecharitomene as "highly favored" - as if that somehow contradicts the notion that she was full of God's grace.


#20

[quote="stewstew03, post:19, topic:279279"]
Ah, okay thanks for clarifying Iggy.

I would contend that there is no scripture that is irrelevant.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Timothy 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Only to this discussion. I wouldn't bring up Amos 1:1 when discussing baptism :o

Furthermore, I think an exegesis of Luke 1:28 would be highly

relevant to a discussion of Marian doctrine.

The problem as I see it is that protestants go out of their way to distance themselves from Catholic dogma by interpreting kecharitomene as "highly favored" - as if that somehow contradicts the notion that she was full of God's grace.

[/quote]

Well, that may be true. I do not know if there is any particular bias in the translation of that passage in non-Roman Catholic Bibles.


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