Protestants-Is the Bible the Pillar of Truth?


#1

Hello my seperated Prostestant brethren.Is the Bible the Pillar of Truth?


#2

Based on the response so far…perhaps not. (Note: I’m Catholic, but wanted to give your thread a bump).


#3

=jonfan;2029953]Hello my seperated

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

.Is the Bible the Pillar of Truth?

The church
What is the church as revealed to the Apostle Paul in the revelation of the mystery?

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

What must one do to be part of the church and be saved?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Under the dispensation of Grace as revealed to the Apostle Paul, unknown prior to this revelation, is that salvation is by grace. Those who continue to preach the Gospel of the kingdom are two thousand years behind the times.


#4

Hello Rightly Divide. Did you read through 1 Tim 3? You do know this chapter deals with what kind of men are to be put into the clergy? So why would the church be an invisible book? The mystery of Christ is his church that holds the bodfy of believers.

1 Tim
**3:1. A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work. **

Your post implies works are bad.

1 Tim
**3:15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. **

Also I agree Salvation is a gift from God. This is what the Church teaches. We also follow Jesus’ teaching that to be born again you must be baptized by water and spirit. So yes Catholics are born again.

**John
3:5. Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **

What is even crazier is that Paul baptized whole households. I wonder how many infants were in those households.


#5

#6

So why would the church be an invisible book? The mystery of Christ is his church that holds the bodfy of believers.

You do not understand the mystery of the revelation.

1 Tim
**3:1. A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work. **

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Your post implies works are bad.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Also I agree Salvation is a gift from God. This is what the Church teaches. We also follow Jesus’ teaching that to be born again you must be baptized by water and spirit. So yes Catholics are born again.

Jewish dispensation
Mar 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] unto the dogs.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

**John
3:5. Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **
Different dispensation. When is the kingdom of God?

[quote]What is even crazier is that Paul baptized whole households. I wonder how many infants were in those households.

1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[/quote]


#7

#8

If you understood the revelation of the mystery, you would understand a letter from James to the twelve tribes is prior to the revelation of the mystery. There is not grace by faith prior to the revelation of the mystery. That is not the gospel of Grace That is kingdom talk. When is the day of the Lord, Is the body of Christ judged by works on the day of the Lord?

Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Was the gospel of the kingdom kept secret?
Of course not!
You cannot reconcile the two and you do not have to. It meant what it said.
I am not here to argue doctrine with you though. I must resist and focus on the gospel of grace and how it can lead people to salvation.


#9

#10

It amazes me when I find those who put Paul over Jesus. Paul’s bones are under the altar at St Paul Outside the Walls, Roma, Italia. He is not resurrected from the dead!

Is Paul God? No. He condemns those who would say they follow him or Apollos; he was glad he didn’t baptize some believers who were following him more than Christ. He nowhere claims that his teachings nullify Jesus’ teachings.

In red-letter edition Bibles, whose words are in red? Paul’s? No. Jesus Christ’s.

Why do Catholics stand for the Gospel readings in church, but not other readings from the Bible? Because the life and teaching of Jesus Christ - who, remember, is God - and it has special prominence of place. God reveals himself and teaches us the way.

Oh yeah, but that was just to be ignored immediately. Yeah right.

How can those who think Paul nullifies Jesus call themselves Christian? They aren’t following Christ! They should be honest and call themselves Paulists.

Re I came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

True! Don’t confuse the Jews and Israel - two different things. Israel is bigger. What does Israel include?

The TEN LOST TRIBES! Flung into exile, intermarrying with Gentile dogs (woof that includes me, goy-girl totally, Viking), until they were indistinguishable from the Gentiles. Lost! Lost! Yet God kept promising through his prophets to restore Israel.

How the flock was he going to do that?

By expanding the new covenant to the whole People of God, all the ethne - nations - among whom the lost tribes of Israel disappeared. Jesus made the God of the Jews the God of the Old and New Israel.

That’s Paul’s point in his teachings, especially to the Roman Jews, showing them that Pharisaically separating themselves from the unclean Gentiles wasn’t the way any more. This is how God restored Israel!

The qahal becomes the ekklesia - the worldwide covenant family of God, the People of God. Boom! Not a destruction, a fulfillment.

What was the order of evangelization commissioned by Jesus? Acts 1:8: Jerusalem, all Judea (the Jews), Samaria (proximate lost tribes of Israel, formerly the apostate part of the divided kingdom), the ends of the earth (dispersed lost tribes of Israel all over the world). See? Jesus’ teachings and kingdom are for everyone. Israel = Gentiles!


#11

It amazes me when I find those who put Paul over Jesus.

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. He is never over God.

Paul’s bones are under the altar at St Paul Outside the Walls, Roma, Italia. He is not resurrected from the dead!

I pray that no one has defiled his grave and ripped the bones off a corpse.

Is Paul God? No. He condemns those who would say they follow him or Apollos; he was glad he didn’t baptize some believers who were following him more than Christ. He nowhere claims that his teachings nullify Jesus’ teachings.

The revelation of the mystery was taught to Paul by Christ. In Galatians,

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

In red-letter edition Bibles, whose words are in red? Paul’s? No. Jesus Christ’s.

Compelling.

Oh yeah, but that was just to be ignored immediately. Yeah right.

Ignored? No, but you must rightly divide.

How can those who think Paul nullifies Jesus call themselves Christian? They aren’t following Christ! They should be honest and call themselves Paulists.

Blasphemy.
Paul does not nullify Christ. The gospel of the Kingdom is not over yet, I am sure talking about Daniel’s 70th week will be fruitless with a person who thinks anyone worships Paul

Re I came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

True! Don’t confuse the Jews and Israel - two different things. Israel is bigger. What does Israel include?

Wrong. Only man can seperate the two. There is no spiritual Israel.

The TEN LOST TRIBES! Flung into exile, intermarrying with Gentile dogs (woof that includes me, goy-girl totally, Viking), until they were indistinguishable from the Gentiles. Lost! Lost! Yet God kept promising through his prophets to restore Israel.

And he will.

That’s Paul’s point in his teachings, especially to the Roman Jews, showing them that Pharisaically separating themselves from the unclean Gentiles wasn’t the way any more. This is how God restored Israel!

Israel is not restored.


#12

Rightly_divided wrote:

Is Paul God? No. He condemns those who would say they follow him or Apollos; he was glad he didn’t baptize some believers who were following him more than Christ. He nowhere claims that his teachings nullify Jesus’ teachings.

You are right. His teachings are in accordance with Jesus teachings so by saying Paul had a new revelation you are nullifying Christ teachings.

In red-letter edition Bibles, whose words are in red? Paul’s? No. Jesus Christ’s.

Why do Catholics stand for the Gospel readings in church, but not other readings from the Bible? Because the life and teaching of Jesus Christ - who, remember, is God - and it has special prominence of place. God reveals himself and teaches us the way.

**
Of course he does. He reveals himself through his (Katholik)Church. **


#13

Just to be clear, I have not written anything in this particular post even though my name being used seems to indicate I did. Kentuckyliz wrote the quotes you used.


#14

My apologies Rightly_Divided. It didn’t post correctly.


#15

Here we go R/D.

Quote:

Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. He is never over God.

**His teachings are what you concentrate on though by citing a ‘revelation of mystery’. There are other books in the NT that compliment the Pauline Epsitles all of equal value. **

Quote:
Paul’s bones are under the altar at St Paul Outside the Walls, Roma, Italia. He is not resurrected from the dead!

I pray that no one has defiled his grave and ripped the bones off a corpse.

**um… me too. ** :ehh:

Quote:
Is Paul God? No. He condemns those who would say they follow him or Apollos; he was glad he didn’t baptize some believers who were following him more than Christ. He nowhere claims that his teachings nullify Jesus’ teachings.

The revelation of the mystery was taught to Paul by Christ. In Galatians,

**Bad exegesis. God is not the author of confusion. Take a look:

2:7. But contrariwise, when they had seen that to me was committed the gospel of theuncircumcision, as to Peter was that of the circumcision.

The gospel of the uncircumcision… The preaching of the gospel to the uncircumcised, that is, to the Gentiles. St. Paul was called in an extraordinary manner to be the apostle of the Gentiles; St. Peter, besides his general commission over the whole flock, (John 21. 15, etc.), had a peculiar charge of the people of the circumcision, that is, of the Jews. **

newadvent.org/bible/gal002.htm

Quote:
Oh yeah, but that was just to be ignored immediately. Yeah right.

Ignored? No, but you must rightly divide.

**Once again there is no righteous divide. The Church is one. Paul respected Peter’s authority.

2:11. But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

I withstood, etc… The fault that is here noted in the conduct of St. Peter, was only a certain imprudence, in withdrawing himself from the table of the Gentiles, for fear of giving offence to the Jewish converts; but this, in such circumstances, when his so doing might be of ill consequence to the Gentiles, who might be induced thereby to think themselves obliged to conform to the Jewish way of living, to the prejudice of their Christian liberty. Neither was St. Paul’s reprehending him any argument against his supremacy; for in such cases an inferior may, and sometimes ought, with respect, to admonish his superior. **

newadvent.org/bible/gal002.htm

Quote:
How can those who think Paul nullifies Jesus call themselves Christian? They aren’t following Christ! They should be honest and call themselves Paulists.

Blasphemy.
Paul does not nullify Christ. The gospel of the Kingdom is not over yet, I am sure talking about Daniel’s 70th week will be fruitless with a person who thinks anyone worships Paul.

The gospel of the kingdom is not over yet? Are you referring to Revelations? Either way the Kingdom is eternal and embodies Christ mystical Church.

Quote:
Re I came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

True! Don’t confuse the Jews and Israel - two different things. Israel is bigger. What does Israel include?

Wrong. Only man can seperate the two. There is no spiritual Israel.

**The Jews were Children of the Flesh. We are Children of the Spirit. Christ made that bridge for us. **



#16

One major problem we are going to have is you are not quoting the King James Bible, which you do not have to by an means. As a Roman Catholic, it would not be expected. But, is my exegesis bad if you are quoting a Bible that says something completely different than mine? It appears the same experiences that I have in person when debating others who use another Bible, we are at a stand still because of this.

I also made the comment about bones because it is my recollection, and I have not studied the history extensively in this particular matter, that Catholics have defiled the graves of the apostles and other “saints” and ripped bones off their dead corpses and used them as “relics”. If I am incorrect that graves have been defiled, I want to be corrected. I, of course, do not want to accuse people of digging up dead people if I am indeed wrong.

I am curious as to the support about your statement that Paul is under Peter’s authority. Please elaborate on that.

I will ask another question, what is the revelation of the mystery? Please use verses only from the Bible, even if it is the Roman Catholic Bible.

As far as rightly dividing, it is straight from God through the Apostle Paul. I have no choice not to. Any more than you can forget your favorite verse, which if like most Roman Catholics would be in the 16th chapter of the book of Matthew.


#17

Then use the Douay-Rheims Bible. Same era English, more accurate and came out 2 years ahead of the KJV.


#18

No, that is not a viable option either.


#19

Then you may as well pack it in…

The King James Version is weak to say the least and has had entire books edited from him by men. I don’t even own one anymore.

The only other possible options are the Revised Standard Version or the New American Bible


#20

Oh well…

I also made the comment about bones because it is my recollection, and I have not studied the history extensively in this particular matter, that Catholics have defiled the graves of the apostles and other “saints” and ripped bones off their dead corpses and used them as “relics”. If I am incorrect that graves have been defiled, I want to be corrected. I, of course, do not want to accuse people of digging up dead people if I am indeed wrong.

Sorry but that is a separate topic for another thread. Because it’s off-topic it cannot and shouldn’t be addressed here.

I am curious as to the support about your statement that Paul is under Peter’s authority. Please elaborate on that.

Sorry but that is a separate topic for another thread. Because it’s off-topic it cannot and shouldn’t be addressed here.

I will ask another question, what is the revelation of the mystery? Please use verses only from the Bible, even if it is the Roman Catholic Bible.

Sorry but that is a separate topic for another thread. Because it’s off-topic it cannot and shouldn’t be addressed here.

As far as rightly dividing, it is straight from God through the Apostle Paul. I have no choice not to. Any more than you can forget your favorite verse, which if like most Roman Catholics would be in the 16th chapter of the book of Matthew.

Maybe you should learn a little Latin and see what my favorite verse is. (Hint: Look at the 28th verse here.)


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