Protestants: This 'n That

Continuation of previous thread called: Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor?

Moondweller:

You keep trying to get us to change our minds about OSAS. Here is another Scripture passage which refutes your belief that “all persons who are once saved stay saved forever”:

Romans 2:3-9
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Christians who break God’s commandments reap wrath upon themselves as do all non-believers who break God’s commandments, unless they repent before death.

Salvation is a lifelong process, not a one-time event.

RPMerger: Here’s another one: using “martial” instead of “marital”. Now that’s a Freudian slip if there ever was one!

:smiley:

Some marriages are definitely domestic battle grounds. No one really wins, but everyone loses. :frowning:

Men are always supposed to make the coffee in the morning. Scripture commands it. Hebrews. Yes, it’s old, but it still makes me smile. :slight_smile:

Love that! DH does do that every morning… now I can say that he’s being Scriptural. :clapping:

Now, is there a Scripture verse that says men are supposed to make sure the house is locked up every night? I just feel, in my heart of hearts where the Holy Spirit speaks to me, that IT’S THE MAN’S JOB!! :smiley:

Oh! Just got it! He-brews! :newidea:

And here are a couple more:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son fo God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay, and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:26-31

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of rigtheousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit, and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

The thing you people are missing about the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is that when a person is regenerated, it causes a fundamental change in their soul. Because of that, they will certainly be kept by the power of God to keep believing on Christ for their salvation and keep repenting of their sin.

It’s both - and more.

As for that mention of “continuance in doing good” - that is one of the elements of the doctrine, not an objection to it. Nothing so far quoted in this thread is an objection to OSAS.

The passage in Romans is applied out of context - Paul is not saying how Christians are to behave, but how those who are not justified, and are therefore not yet in Christ, behave. Life in Christ does not end with justification - but it certainly begins with it: justification is a once-for-all action on our behalf; not a goal toward which we travel. It something that has happened already, something that we live off for the rest of our lives. Which makes it different from salvation: for salvation is an act of God applied to us in the past when we appropriate it as ours by faith; a process that lasts for the rest of our lives; & a heavenly reality of which we already have a foretaste in this life, since the indwelling Spirit is the first instalment, the pledge, of it.

So we are already justified - our justification is no more a future event than the Crucifixion or the Resurrection are. The elect are justified “from before the foundation of the world”; this supra-temporal Divine action becomes fully active within the historical series when Jesus is crucified and raised in glory; and it is applied to the individual believer throughout all time & space thereafter, until the whole company of those whom God has foreknown and elected to salvation is completed. Individuals are elected to salvation, because Christ is the Elect One: they are elected in Him, for Him,
through Him, by Him. To say they can be lost, is to say that Christ can be defeated & the devil be victorious over Him; it is to say that His own can, or will, “fall out of His hand”; it is no different from saying that the Saints in Heaven can be damned, for the elect are as securely Christ’s on earth as they will be in Heaven. It is a denial that Christ is King, & affirms that Satan is Lord instead, and Jesus a defeated no-hoper. So much for “the prince of this world/age [being] cast out” - if he can get the better of the Son of God, then of course he can destroy the elect; what could be more obvious ? Is this what the Good News is ?

A further reason the elect cannot be lost is that they are elect with the same election as Christ Himself; so if they can be lost, so can He; for His Father has for them, His children through adoption by grace, the same Love He gives to the Son Who is His by Nature.

To apply verses three and four to Christians is so inappropriate as to call for no further comment. :frowning:

So the use of all those passages for the elect is very great: there is no implication that they could be lost - that is excluded, because it would make Paul contradict himself - and it is by their God-given obedience to God that they become people who do in fact persevere according to God’s Will.

Nothing scriptural about that. Much, however, scriptural about believers being exhorted to repent, to keep the faith. No need to exhort them if God’s power is on the case for them.

Are you one of the elect?

**
Just who do you think Paul was writing to in this letter (Romans 2:3-9)? He was writing to the particular members of the Church (disciples of Christ) who were not acting like they should be acting. Paul did not write letters to non-baptized persons. All of the epistles were written to persons who were members of the Church.**

The original manuscript had no chapter or verse separations. It was written as one long letter to the Church in Rome.

Romans 1:7-8
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

No one knows for sure if they are of the “elect” until they die. They are of the elect only if they use their free wills to choose good instead of evil until they die. God alone knows, by His foreknowledge, who these elect are.

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

2 Peter 1:1-11
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If a person is “once saved and always saved,” then he has no reason to “be even more diligent to make his call and election sure.”

1 Timothy 3:1-7
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

A person can fall away from Christ at any time and he/she will fall away if/when he/she chooses to sin. The penalty for falling away is the same condemnation of the devil. What is the condemnation of the devil?

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

If you “fall away” from Christ through either sin or lukewarmness, then you will end up in hell. (cf. Revelation 3:16)

Originally Posted by **humble_in_doubt **
…an invisible god whose never shown himself to mankind in an objectively verifiable way (and we can only believe reports of our primitive superstitious ancient ancestors)? OK

God sent His only begotten Son to earth 2000 years ago as Messiah to atone for Adam’s sin in order to make it possible for mankind to inherit eternal life. The Jews, however, were expecting a Warrior (Messiah) who would throw off the yoke of the Roman Empire. When they did not get what they were expecting, they rejected Him. What are you expecting before you will believe? So many people want a genie in a bottle who will come to do their bidding as soon and as often as they rub their lamps. Instead, Jesus is the Light of the World who saves souls from eternal death if they believe in Him and obey Him until death. (John 8:12, Mark 13:13, Hebrews 5:9)

The Signs of Jesus:

The Jews saw Jesus take 5 loaves and 2 fishes and multiply them in order to feed 5000 men and their families. 12 baskets of fragments were left over. Did this cause all the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus healed the sick and gave sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf. Did this cause all of the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus cast out demons. Did this cause all of the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Jesus raised persons from the dead. He raised from the dead. Did this cause all the Jews to believe in Him? NO.

Numbers 14:11
Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?

Mark 16:20
And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

John 12:37
** But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him**,

What are you expecting from God before you will believe?

No, Catholics don’t “miss” this effect of regeneration. In fact, it is a relief to know that some Catholic teachings have been retained in the ecclesial communities of our separated brethren.

However, God does not keep those who do not wish to be kept. I suggest a review of the few posts above this one, as they are full of scriptures that demonstrate how it is possible to fall away from the truth.

By the way, why would Jesus indicate that it is possible to blot a name out of the book of life, if this were not true?

Sorry, could not find one. :frowning: The only place in Scripture that I could find a man locking a door was after he murdered Israel’s enemy. :eek:

Doesn’t that Proverbs 31 woman make you tired just thinking about all she does? She probably locked the doors every night, too. :smiley:

but this goes against what Christ said… in the parable of the sower, He said that some people do accept the Gospel “with joy” and yet later fall away due to worries of this life etc. Also, the Bible says, the one who perseveres till the end will be saved.

yes Baptism makes a change in our soul, takes away original sin and causes us to be “born again”, but that’s not a guarantee of salvation. A person can be born again and yet go to hell. What matters is staying in this state of grace. When we commit wilful sins, we leave God, we leave grace, and so we go to Confession to be reconciled again :slight_smile:

Let’s look closely at verses 3 and 4:

Romans 1:3-4 “And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Who did Paul write this letter to? He wrote it to the Church members in Rome and we know this by the saluation of this letter:

Romans 1:7-8 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.”

Paul is speaking to Roman Church members whose faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Paul states that they are all called to be saints. Whether they reach sainthood, however, depends on how they live their own lives.

Here, in vs. 3 &4, Paul is telling these Church members that if they think that they can judge non-Christians “guilty” for doing sinful things and not also judge themselves “guilty” when they themselves are doing the same things as these non-believers, then they are greatly mistaken.

Paul goes on to say, “5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.” Romans 2:5-11

Paul states that these sinful disobedient Christians are themselves treasuring up wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God because they are not living Christian lives which please God. Instead, they are leading evil lives full of sinful deeds. But, God is not mocked, we reap what we sow. God does not show partiality to Christians or anyone else. (cf. Galatians 6:7)

OSAS is not Scriptural! (cf. Matthew 7:21-24)

Originally posted by Humble in Doubt:

capitalism is inherently about greed. It’s an economic and social system where trade and industry are privately controlled for profit rather than by the state. Indeed it was Adam Smith’s invisible hand, which posits through the pursuit of individual self-interest (greed), unintentionally produces a collective good for society.

Capitalism is about making a profit, agreed, however, companies/industries can act ethically within this system to achieve their ends. You only have to look at Enron and Worldcom (to name a few) to show how greed is actually destructive to the well being of Capitalism.

nuclear weapons served the purpose for which it was created … it saved millions of lives on both sides (we would have lost at least a million Marines, and the casualties on the Japanese side would have been unthinkable). Moreover, there’s a great argument that asserts the infusion of nuclear weapons into the cold war prevented an all out war between NATO and the Soviets (due to MAD or mutually assured destruction).

There were hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian casualties in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and you call this morally right? But at the same time you will castigate the Church for putting to death heretics (who were given the chance to recant) in order to protect Christ’s flock?

Yes nuclear proliferation is a problem today, but not an insurmountable problem if approached correctly (and in hindsight as long as we’re successful in our proliferation efforts the positives probably outweigh the negatives).

"Radiation released from each step in the nuclear weapons production cycle cause cancer, congenital defects, mental retardation, immune destruction, cancer, stillbirths and other health problems.

Similar syndromes have been observed among the workers exposed to radiation in nuclear power plants in Japan, or in down-winders living in the irradiated zones near Hanford, and in the Chernobyl children, as well as the areas close to the nuclear test sites.

In 1984 the United Nations Human Rights Committe noted that “it’s evident that the designing, testing, manifacture, possession and deployment of nuclear weapons are among the greatest threats to the right to life which confront mankind today” and concluded that “the production, testing, possession, deployment and use of nuclear weapon should be prohibited and recognized as crimes against humanity.” In human terms the cost has been astronomical. **Rosalie Bertel has estimated that “the global victims of the radiation pollution related to nuclear weapon production, testing, use and waste conservatively number 13 million.” **

google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.motherearth.org/nuke/images/4.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.motherearth.org/nuke/begin2.php&h=276&w=381&sz=29&tbnid=OGwY7xYSvQCKkM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnuclear%2Bweapons%2Beffects&hl=en&usg=__WjNYywWQl6zKVC1-Upbs1rBrk1M=&ei=d3ZRSrbAKsuptgeTm_mnBA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=7&ct=image

Eugenics, on the other hand, was never logical (the premise of that statement requires one to think racism is logical).

Now it is considered illogical but at that time it was not.

Originally posted by humble_in-doubt: “there was no attack … I simply provided my opinion of the truth (and oh … talk about the pot calling the kettle black)”

Your demeaning and sarcastic comments tell a different story. No, it is not the pot calling the kettle black. I don’t advocate lust, greed, abortion, divorce and other selfish behaviors like you do. I bet you are just a ray of sunshine for everyone around you! :wink: Not!

“Are you saying it’s OK to burn human beings alive at the stake for mere dissent? Why then should I view you as any different than the hard line Iranian government who murdered protesters of its recent election, or the Taliban who killed little girls in soccer stadiums because the wind blew their dress too high? Indeed why shouldn’t any rational person view religion as a threat to our democratic society? Thankfully I doubt you speak for most theists (unless I’m misconstruing your reply), although from what I can see you do represent the propensity of theism.”

“Mere dissent”? Since you are truly ignorant of the truth about the Inquisitions, I suggest you read about it from non-anti-Catholic sources.

Capital punishment was first enforced by the Israelites/Jews; I suggest you take it up with them. Why not ask about slavery while you are at it? News Flash: You would not have been any different in your thinking if you had lived in those same time periods.

mythological fear tactics hold no sway over me.

Mythology is only in your mind. I believe in what is real. God is real.

my point exactly. It’s a tactic …

And your tactic is to tell us that there is no God. :rolleyes:

You do not have any idea where you came from and you do not have any clue where you are going after you die, which, btw, you have absolutely no control over unless you commit suicide. Yep, you are definitely worth listening to when eternity is being discussed. You’ve got it all figured out and this is your conclusion: Eternity is nothing. :shrug:

I’ll stick with Scripture and the Church as will the other Catholics on the forum. If you do not like it, we are not forcing you to hang around. :wink:

“Mystical explanations are thought to be deep; the truth is that they are not even shallow. He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted." _ Friedrich Nietzsche. (Provided “courtesy?” of humble_in_doubt)

“He who is truly humble, has no desire to be exalted. Friedrich Nietzsche was an idiot. Those who believe what he taught are most likely idiots, also.” _ SHW

“The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” _ God

I think solar energy is our best bet right now. If they would spend the money on developing these types of non-polluting energy sources, many lives would be saved. The problem is storing this energy and converting it to AC. Perhaps we need to lobby for appliances to be made compatible with DC.

Does anyone know of other non-polluting energy sources that are in development?

nuclear weapons served the purpose for which it was created … it saved millions of lives on both sides (we would have lost at least a million Marines, and the casualties on the Japanese side would have been unthinkable). Moreover, there’s a great argument that asserts the infusion of nuclear weapons into the cold war prevented an all out war between NATO and the Soviets (due to MAD or mutually assured destruction).

I don’t think the use of nuclear weapons can ever be morally justified because it violates the principle of non-combatant immunity. I wish we could eliminate all nuclear weapons, but I also don’t think that’s possible for practical reasons.

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