Based on what I’ve read, Jesus used it to demonstrate that the Messiah is greater than King David, and not just the Son of David.
The Father has not given that understanding to us yet and as long as it is not illogical it works for the believer.
You’re going to have some difficulties here trying to find Scriptural support for everything that goes on with the Trinity. The Trinity is a central mystery of our faith, God hasn’t fully revealed it to us, and the doctrine on it comes more from councils and theologians than from Scripture itself.
Nevertheless you might try some of the Biblical references from the footnotes of the Catechism sections on the Trinity, such as CCC 260.
There are three persons in Trinity, each of whom is the One God. The One God is not made up of 3 persons, as if 1/3 of God is the Father. Rather, all of God is the Father, all of God is the Son, all is the Spirit.
In Heaven, these three persons exist together. The Father loves the Son and the Spirit. The Father speaks to the others.
Try St. Bellarmines commentary here:
Don’t forget, the Trinity is one God in three divine persons (or beings). They are separate and distinct, but also intrinsically united
About ten years ago I saw a post on a Christian site “How can we explain Trinity in a rational way.” At first it seemed to be a genuine question but after a while it became obvious that it was being posed by a troll who was opposed to Trinitarian philosophy.
Your post and subsequent replies remind me strongly of that troll.
One in being =No beginning no end.
I just read an interesting analogy from Aponius, an early Christian writer from the near East.
Aponius used the analogy that Scripture and Tradition were like two breasts that provide nutrition to “baby” Christians, and both kinds of milk count as Apostolic teaching, straight from Jesus.
Then he went on to compare the Apostles’ teaching to the things you can do with a higher butterfat content milk – that it looks like it’s just liquid milk, but also contains contents that can only be separated by skill (such as curds, and butter which needs to be churned out of the milk).
(Btw, it turns out that there is such a thing as sheep’s milk butter and cheese, and the passage talks a lot about the Lamb, right before this. Casting the Church as a spotless ewe is pretty common.)
The Bible has a lot of references to the Trinity, and Jesus spoke about it more clearly to His Apostles. But it took study and skill for the Church to understand the implications that had always been right there. This was one of the things that the Holy Spirit taught us, which the Apostles could not have understood until Jesus ascended into Heaven.
Arthur.k (regarding Trinitarian doctrine) . . . .
Yes I’ve referenced that, but still doesn’t explain in a logical sense how it’s possible
There are alleged “truths” that go against reason. Falsehoods.
There are truths consistent with reason. (i.e. 1+1=2).
But there are truths that are ABOVE human reason that have to do with God.
Against reason (NOT truth but may purport to be)
Concerning God . . . We would EXPECT some truths ABOVE reason (that a finite human mind could never grasp), because of WHO God is (The eternal infinite “I Am”).
As a matter-of-fact, if ALL truths concerning God were deducible by mere human reason, you would no for sure that ISN’T God.
Q: But HOW can we know those Truths that exceed human reason?
A: Only one way. They MUST be revealed to us. Things like the Incarnation, the Trinity, and the problem of evil, are all things we can and should explore, but we can never completely unpack such truths.
Q: OK. But HOW do we know for SURE, they are “truths” and we are not being fooled by false doctrine?
A: The Resurrection and reliable witnesses (martyrs) to the Risen Christ along with grace.
These truths that are ABOVE reason, are sometimes called . . . “Mysteries”.
We know God is Trinity, because God tells us He is Trinity. That’s WHY we can have an ETERNAL Father.
Because He has been “Fathering” from all eternity. So that means there HAS TO be someone that He is “Fathering to” eternally – the Son.
God is ONE God. But He is Three Divine Persons in that ONE God. And we know this, because God tells us this.
Hope this helps.
So basically you’re having trouble understanding the mystery of the Trinity? & it’s kinda hard to explain something you don’t understand yourself.
I don’t understand the mystery of the Trinity myself. I couldn’t explain it to you so, I won’t try.
But why do you believe in heaven the unity of the Trinity is different than it is on earth? Jesus said, “When you see me, you see the Father.” Remember this was in reply to, “Show us the Father?”
I remember John 11:42
You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.”
From that I always understood a lot of the dialogue in the Bible is for our benefit. To help us know & understand the mind of God. Like in Genesis when God says, “Let us make man in our image.”
Who is talking to who? What language was he speaking? Surely words weren’t spoken. I mean this was before there was a need for a spoken language.
But the words were spoken to someone way back then, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God & repeated generation after generation before being written down in an ancient tongue & translated umpteen times for you & I to understand the will of God.
Another simple way of translating that is “God declared”.
it (your reference) is in the Old Testament and the Trinity had not yet been revealed clearly.
There are a number of passages which “hint” at the Trinity in the Old Testament; but the Jews had not yet understood what was hidden, to be revealed when Christ came.
The Jews in the OT may have referred to God as Father, but that neither proves nor disproves the Trinity. Keep in mind that the Jews would not even utter the name of God, nor write it. The god of the Israelites, whose name was revealed to Moses as four Hebrew consonants (YHWH) called the tetragrammaton, was initially used, but later in the OT not even that was used.
Not sure who your speculators are ( would guess possibly JW’s) but you may not want to spend an inordinate amount of time with them if for no other reason than the frustration factor.
Jesus used this Psalm to refute the Pharisees who insisted that the son of David, the Messiah (the anointed one) would be merely a human messiah.
The passage is in Matt 22:40-5 …
Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them this question: “What do you think of the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying,
‘The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?
If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?” No one was able to give him an answer, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.
Clearly, David, the author of the Psalm is the one referring to “my Lord” when he says ‘The Lord said to my Lord.’
It isn’t the Father calling the messiah ‘my Lord,’ it is David doing so in the Psalm.
What Jesus is getting at is that David wouldn’t call his descendent ‘my Lord’ if that descendent were purely a human being, he would have to be something more than merely human. Yet, the Messiah would be the promised son of David, so he would have to be a human being. How could he be both human and divine? is the question Jesus is posing to the Pharisees.
When you ask …
… the logical answer is that the Father was speaking to the Son in his human capacity as the son of David, which is why David “…by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying, ‘The LORD said to my Lord.’”
The Father isn’t calling the Son, ‘my Lord,’ that is David saying that. The Father is speaking to the Son, though, but he isn’t calling him 'my Lord." The Father is saying to the Son, Jesus, that he is to sit “…at my right hand.”
That is a Jewish figure of speech for sharing equally in divine power.
The proper context for this would be that Jesus by becoming man, i.e., son of David or son of man, emptied himself of that power in order to become a human being, but after his Ascension he was restored to the “right hand of power,” his proper place as the Second Person of the Trinity.
The Most Holy Trinity is affirmed in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 A.D.), based upon these scriptures.
I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
Your first error is trying to get an answer from the Bible alone. We are not Bible alone people. It is from Sacred Tradition that we get the explicit Teaching of the Holy Trinity.
Your second error is talking to people that are Bible alone and taking their objections seriously. They can twist any verse to mean anything they want. If its not this one, it will be another one. For example, have you seen this verse in Scripture:
Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
This is God the Father, in heaven, speaking to God the Son and calling Him, God.
And guess what, the naysayers deny this also. So, if you’re Catholic, tell them that the Scriptures are derived from Sacred Tradition and that Tradition is alive and develops and continues to be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
And the Church which passes down this Tradition, infallibly, explains that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, have communicated with each other from all eternity.
I hope that helps.
Don’t bother. He’s a troll with a very recognizable style.
I’m really not a troll, I’m trying to prepare by educating myself more on the Catholic beliefs in order to defend against speculators.
Honestly though, you should think about what you’re writing before you write it, fortunately I’m not afraid of asking these types of questions, but other people may be and responses such as your only help deter people further from searching for the truth, and makes you partially responsible for this. I would recommend you go to confession and ask for forgiveness that you’re deterring people from searching for the truth themselves. Now tell me, would an anti-trinitarian/ant-catholic troll recommend such things?
I’ve already replied to this above.
Thanks for all of your insights, as there’s a lot of information to process here, it’ll take some time. If I have any more question I will revert back.
The dogma of the Holy Trinity is that God exists in Three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so they can talk with each other since they have Personhood. The unity is also a perfect agreement between them as they keep their Personhood as such.
Remember that Christ did talk with God the Father in Getsemani for example having doubts. So I don’t think The Church ever presented the dogma of the Holy Trinity as a loss of Personhood of either Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one entity that could have a discussion between Each Other.
Maybe it’s because us people argue a lot and we are pretty violent that we mistake a discussion between Father and Son within the Holy Trinity as a lack of unity between Them.