Psychological or spiritual

The Falling Phenomenon - by Father Richard Bain.
parishmissions.com/resting.html

I felt at peace after reading about Father Bain. I can’t wait to
share his finding to my friends who are making the same mistake. I am looking for more articles/reference on spiritual discernment
regarding Charismatic Renewal, similar to Father Bain’s,
but since we have read so much personal opinions, can I ask for
only guidelines from ordained priests/clergy? Thanks.

I am not in the clergy so I cannot respond accordingly, as you requested, but I did want to thank you for posting this link. I found it very intersting–I had no idea the “falling phenomenon” had even been taking place in our church! I am not a charismatic Catholic because I just have never attended any Charismatic Renewal Mass or looked into it, but I find the aspects of healing quite fascinating. I always thought that the “falling phenomenon” was strictly the “domain” of Evangelicals and Pentecostalists. I find Fr Bain’s experience quite enlightening, and I have no doubt that what he says is true. Again, thank you so much for providing us with the information. Many blessings! :slight_smile:

Good Morning Gnome,

I have also been involved with the Charismatic Renewal since the 1960s. I have seen abuses happen in every area but at the same time I have seen wonderful blessings.

As far as falling or resting in the Spirit goes, I think the abuses are probably more visible.

I have fallen when I had no idea anyone was praying over me. My back was turned to the Priest and I was actually walking away from him, probably at least 25 feet away. I did receive a healing when this happened, not only a physical one but a spritual one.

I have also been prayed over by Priests and lay folks who attempted to push me down. This became a very common thing for a time.

Father Bain admits that he believes this does happen as a result of the Holy Spirit, I do too.

Should we “throw the baby out with the bathwater” because of abuses? I think much consideration and thought as well as Prayer should go into this.

For those of us who have truly “rested with the Spirit” and the blessings we received, this is a problem. We are told not to stifle the Holy Spirit. That indicates that we can. We are not forced to do anything, God still gives us free will.

We are not forced to operate in any of the gifts or any of the fruits.

We know a lot since the beginning of the Charismatic Renewal. We know we should always have Pastoral involvement (we usually do not). We should always have good sound teaching. Often our Prayer group leaders have not had much teaching or preparation. I still believe Prayer groups should have a “core group” to pray and discern any questionable situations. The leader needs these prayers as do the folks who attend.

Abuses need to be recogonized and handled in a Christlike way.

There are many folks here, who would see the Charismatic Renewal abolished instead of solving problems.
I have seen abuses, very serious abuses in Marian movements but I would never see them done away with when Pastoral care and teaching would solve the problem.

attended a charismatic conference in San Antonio, where Fr. George Montague was the featured speaker and except for some people praying in tongues from time to time in a subdued manner (not during Mass) did not see any of the flashier manifestations such as being slain in the spirit that are part of other charismatic healing services I have attended. During the Eucharistic procession everyone was kneeling, which probably, from what Fr. Bain’s article says, precluded falling, although many adults and teens received the gift of tears. That definite physical, spiritual and psychological healings occured I have absolutely no doubt. for the record, I am not “charismatic” and do not regularly seek out or take part in this style of worship. I attended as a youth chaperone.

[quote=NightRider]I am not in the clergy so I cannot respond accordingly, as you requested, but I did want to thank you for posting this link. I found it very intersting–I had no idea the “falling phenomenon” had even been taking place in our church! I am not a charismatic Catholic because I just have never attended any Charismatic Renewal Mass or looked into it, but I find the aspects of healing quite fascinating. I always thought that the “falling phenomenon” was strictly the “domain” of Evangelicals and Pentecostalists. I find Fr Bain’s experience quite enlightening, and I have no doubt that what he says is true. Again, thank you so much for providing us with the information. Many blessings! :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Thanks NightRider, your comment made my day. I am still touched about the healing aspects and how humbled he is when acknowledging the gift and willing to accept the discernment. You can read more healing “Comments” on his website.

Hi Roberta,
Thanks for sharing. Yes Fr.Bain admits that it can be action of the Holy Spirit, but he concludes with:

“…but much, much more often it is not. Therefore, we should pastorally proceed with caution and always discourage circumstances in which the phenomenon would occur. The Catholic Church, after all, has a long tradition of spiritual discernment, caution, and persistent effort in protecting the faithful from deception and illusion.”

He also said:
“I was not going to reestablish the practice, having been convinced that it was psychological and then to reintroduce it would have been deceptive and dishonest.”

And w/ the top CR leader Cardinal Suenens statement about
"the mistake of allowing the ‘falling phenomenon’ in public worship"

So after knowing these cautions, I don’t understand how one would continue to allow it to happen, or to privately interpret when is truly “rested with the spirit” or not. My understanding is for the years when Fr.Bain and his people experienced this phenomenon, they thought it was truly the Holy Spirit too.

[quote=gnome]Thanks NightRider, your comment made my day. I am still touched about the healing aspects and how humbled he is when acknowledging the gift and willing to accept the discernment. You can read more healing “Comments” on his website.
[/quote]

You’re so very welcome, gnome! I’m very happy my comments made your day! I will have to check out Fr Bain’s website soon. God bless!

This is a very touchy topic.

I think it is between you and the Lord.
I will not judge this and pray you won’t either.

Blessings.

Dear gnome,

You will not get many responses from Catholic clergy. But I do not blame them, because most of them would be destroyed and discredited by the CCR. It has become one of the red herrings of political correctness. I had many priest admit to me in private how they loath the whole thing, but for fear of retaliation they will not stand up and declare publicly what they really think of it. I post a few links, the first ones are from religious brothers, who pretty well dishonor the entire movement, but tack some positive statements to their arguments to appease the rabid element in the CCR. The last one is from a well respected priest who is now dead. Few people are willing to stand up to the CCR, even on this anonymous forum for fear of bringing down the wrath of the charismatics on themselves. There are those who will admit in private what they REALLY think of the CCR but would never dare admit it openly and there are those who go as far as approach the charismatics with good wishes but would themselves have nothing to do with the CCR, and there are those who are just plain quiet, never say anything for it or against it. So there you have it. If you want many friends on this forum, follow the previous poster’s advice and keep some of your findings between the Lord and yourself. God bless.

From saint-mike.org:

  1. renewal reviewalFaith/Spirituality Forum: charismatic

  2. RenewalSpiritual Warfare Forum: The Catholic Charismatic

  3. MovementFaith/Spirituality Forum: Charismatic

  4. MovementSpiritual Warfare Forum: Catholic Charismatic

Fr. William G. Most[font=Arial]:****[/font]

catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=41

Self deception is a very common device that well meaning folks subconciously practise. The root cause is probably pride. I’ve met so many people who boastfully speak of their spiritual gifts through the Holy Spirit that I’m suspicious. Jesus told us to avoid being too conspicuous in our spiritual practises but rather to retire to our prayer closets. That’s probably the safest course in order to avoid this common human pitfall.

The Sixth Malines Document from Cardinal Suenens regarding
"resting in the Spirit":
parishmissions.com/six.html

Are there 5 other Malines documents? If yes, does anyone know where to find them … a link? Thanks.

When truly and openingly experienced it is spiritual. Gods Spirit can be very overpowering. Look what happened at the Garden when the soldiers approached Jesus to arrest Him.Upon saying I AM HE. The soldiers all fell backwoods. There is power in Gods word.[praying over]. :thumbsup:

[quote=SPOKENWORD]When truly and openingly experienced it is spiritual. Gods Spirit can be very overpowering. Look what happened at the Garden when the soldiers approached Jesus to arrest Him.Upon saying I AM HE. The soldiers all fell backwoods. There is power in Gods word.[praying over]. :thumbsup:

[/quote]

[font=Arial]Wrong example! Jesus did not pray over them. The soldiers came to arrest Jesus. They approached him with malice, arrogance and violence. They were thrown down, CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit for their impertinence. Are you implying that charismatics file out to assault Jesus when they line up for being prayed over? Can you see how utterly wrong and twisted the reasoning is when you bring up this example to support the practice of slain in the spirit? This practice is nothing but Protestant heresy; it has no biblical basis whatsoever and has absolutely no precedence in Catholic Tradition. [/font]

[quote=tru_dvotion][font=Arial]Wrong example! Jesus did not pray over them. The soldiers came to arrest Jesus. They approached him with malice, arrogance and violence. They were thrown down, CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit for their impertinence. Are you implying that charismatics file out to assault Jesus when they line up for being prayed over? Can you see how utterly wrong and twisted the reasoning is when you bring up this example to support the practice of slain in the spirit? This practice is nothing but Protestant heresy; it has no biblical basis whatsoever and has absolutely no precedence in Catholic Tradition. [/font]
[/quote]

Tru, you totally misunderstand what im saying. Im saying there is power in Gods Words when spoken. When someone is being prayed over this power is given to the one that is doing the praying..Those soldiers fell backwards by the power of God. Im not using this as an example of being slain in the spirit but come to think of it it is being slain by the spirit. The power of God can overtake a believer. Call it heresy if you want but its the truth. Maybe we should stop putting limits to what God can and cannot do. God Bless.

[quote=SPOKENWORD]Tru, you totally misunderstand what im saying. Im saying there is power in Gods Words when spoken. When someone is being prayed over this power is given to the one that is doing the praying…Those soldiers fell backwards by the power of God.

No, you have the wrong interpretation. Please show me just one example, and you can use the Old as well as the New Testament… it does not even have to be Jesus: just show me one example when the power of God throws someone down on the ground after that person approaches God with his need and with prayer. If you can do that Word, we can discuss this passage further.

Im not using this as an example of being slain in the spirit but come to think of it it is being slain by the spirit. The power of God can overtake a believer.

If it does not explain being slain in the spirit, then why are you using this example? Why not use another example that fits better? I tell you why you had to use this example. Because there is no biblical precedence for being slain in the spirit, certainly not in the context charismatics use it. This is heresy, and can only indicate one of two things: we are dealing with a psychological phenomena or with demonic manifestations.

[/quote]

What point are you trying to make? Are you not able to answer the question? Why not just say: “I have no answer” Than I would just say “Thank you.” And then we would leave it at that. God bless.

[font=‘Verdana’,Arial,Helvetica] [/font]

Caution on publicly announcing “miraculous cures”

Buenos Aires, Oct. 01 (CNA/CWNews.com) - In a statement on the public announcing of unconfirmed miraculous healings, Bishop Jorge Luis Lona of San Luis, Argentina, reiterated that alleged supernatural healings taking place during certain Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR) prayer meetings should not be announced as fact without both confirmation by science and approval of the Church. In his statement, Bishop Lona said the national advisor to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in Argentina, Father Angel Gabriel Gayte, has expressed his complete agreement with Church policy regarding such public statements, which in the CCR are known as “words of knowledge.”

Bishop Lona pointed out that Father Gayte himself has said that “regarding the charism of words of knowledge, it must be discerned in community. Not everyone has this charism and many times it can be very tempting to have it because it makes one stand out and gives one a certain status in the Church, and therefore it falls to the bishop to discern if one has the charism or not.”

more… cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32511

First of all—any claims of miraculous healing must be thoroughly investigated, before they are approved. Remember Medjugore is not approved. Maybe someone should tell the many people who think they were healed that they were not.

And for all the articles condemning CCR there are many more confirming it. Remember many of the things condemned by detractors are also condemned by authentic CCR—CCR has abuses just like anything else.

Here’s a quote from the Holy Father’s message to the Charismatic communities:
*
“Love for the Church *and submission to her Magisterium,in a process of maturing in theChurch supported by a solid permanent formation are relevant signs of your intention to avoid the risk of favouring, unwittingly, a purely emotional experience of the divine, an excessive pursuit of the “extraordinary” and a private withdrawal that may shrink from apostolic outreach.”

See Fr.Most’s article for a clear definition of what “extraordinary” exactly means…

Also, another message from Holy Father to CCR:

“To mature in faith, we have to grow in knowledge of its truths. If this does not happen, there is a danger of superficiality, extreme subjectivism and illusion. The new *Catechism of the Catholic Church *should become for every Christian — and therefore for every community of the Renewal — a constant reference point.”

I do not see any caution like this in other devotion like the Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration.

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