Purgatory, and one or two points, unsure about


#1

I have been trying to find the words purgatory, immaculate conception, Mary ascending into heaven and pray to saints to intercede (it says only Christ can mediate and intercede and no graven images) and can’t find anything like that or the infallability of the Pope in the bible, so I am unsure where anyone in the Vatican got any of this from. It concerns me, as Churches are not there to invent anything, but simply follow the bible. As a rainsed Catholic, I am simply concerned about not finding in the bible everything that the Catholic church teaches.


#2

First you need to understand that the Catholic Church is based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The things that you wish to find are not in the Bible. Remember not everything that Jesus did or said is in the Bible. Remember that “purgatory” is not found in Sacred Scripture. Do you believe in the “Trinity” and “Incarnation?” If you do, why it is not in th Bible. Do you see what i’m trying to get at. There is a room in the Vatican that has the pictures of all the Popes from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, that is how the Vatican got its teachings it was not invented, it was passed down, unlike other religions.


#3

My concern is did the traditions, which contradict the bible on some points (graven images, only Christ is intercesor), come from a holy source or other origins. I am just concerned that if God says no graven images, and Christ says I am the only intercesion and explains salvation, then none of that should be tampered with or added to. I just want to follow the bible as strictly as I can and not offend God by using images, ect… It is just my personal concern. Though I am now clear after looking at one of the posts about Mary being escorted by Christ not ascending on her own, which never quite made sense.


#4

Graven images? Do you mean dead Saints? Mk 12:26-27, “He is not a God of the dead, but of the living,” the siants are very much alive with Him in Heaven. In fact, the saints in heaven are probably more alive than we are.

As far as Intercession goes, we are all united in His divine life. Are we not concerned for each others growth in God’s family. We are all united, everyone as a family, just as we are at home, so why wouldn’t we call for the help and support of our brothers and sisters who have already gone and won their crown of glory.

I’m having a hard time put my thoughts into words right know, because i’m still at work. I hope this helps, maybe someone else can clear it up for you. i feeling :yawn: right now.


#5

[quote=katt33]It concerns me, as Churches are not there to invent anything, but simply follow the bible.
[/quote]

Pray, tell me, where is this statement found in the Bible???

NotWorthy


#6

Hello katt33, :slight_smile:

It always surprises me to hear a Catholic say these things - have you been away from the church for a long time or are you a new convert or something?

[quote=katt33]My concern is did the traditions,
[/quote]

The Bible is part of Catholic Tradition. The Bible would not exist if it weren’t for the Catholic Church.

which contradict the bible on some points (graven images, only Christ is intercesor),

There is nothing in Holy Scripture that contradicts the Catholic Church’s teachings and nothing in her teachings that contradict Scripture. How could one possible contradict the other? The Bible is part of Catholic teaching and Tradition.

Whenever you come to an apparent contradiction, it is because the Scripture has been either mistranslated, misinterpreted or taken out of context.

I am just concerned that if God says no graven images, and Christ says I am the only intercesion and explains salvation, then none of that should be tampered with or added to. I just want to follow the bible as strictly as I can and not offend God by using images, ect… It is just my personal concern.

Not offending God is a very good concern to have! :thumbsup:

But, what, in your interpretation, constitute “graven images,” and what are the restrictions that God gave us about them? Did he not order the decoration of the temple with angel figures?

Did Jesus Christ not say that we were to pray for each other and for our enemies? Is that not an intercession?

Where in the Bible does it say that you should only follow the Bible? Hmmmm. it doesn’t say that. In fact, it says just the opposite - so the notion of using “only the Bible” is not just extra-Biblical, it’s counter-Biblical.

Jesus never wrote anything that we know of, except when he wrote something in the dust as the elders were about to stone an adulteress. He never told his apostles to write anything. They apparently were more concerned with doing what Jesus told them to do than they were in recording much of anything. We are blessed to have the precious few writings of the apostles that we have.

We are considerably better off with regard to the next generation of disciples. Maybe they wrote a lot more or maybe more of their works were preserved so that we can read them, today or maybe both.

Hope that helps!
Elizabeth


#7

kat33 are you sure you’re a Catholic? Or have you just been reading and listening to anti-Catholics who tell you all this bunk? Your phraseology is characteristic of a-Cs,. with lines like,

"the traditions, which contradict the bible on some points (graven images, only Christ is intercesor),

come from a holy source or other origins. I am just concerned that if God says no graven images, and Christ says I am the only intercesion and explains salvation, then none of that should be tampered with or added to. I just want to follow the bible as strictly as I can and not offend God by using images, ect…"

Here’s a thread on Iconoclasm: Your image questions and here’s one on The Assumption and Why the Bible Only doctrine is wrong and this is Purgatory

Praying to the saints and The intercession of saints and this is a whole Library of stuff that will correct all the bunk you’ve been fed

You can’t believe what non-Catholics tell you about our most holy faith. They know even less about it than you do and what they think they know they learned from someone else who didn’t know what they were talking about, though ALL of 'em THINK they know all they need to know.

Stick around, we’ll help you out. :slight_smile:
Pax tecum,


#8

[quote=katt33]My concern is did the traditions, which contradict the bible on some points (graven images, only Christ is intercesor), come from a holy source or other origins. I am just concerned that if God says no graven images, and Christ says I am the only intercesion and explains salvation, then none of that should be tampered with or added to. I just want to follow the bible as strictly as I can and not offend God by using images, ect… It is just my personal concern.
[/quote]

I fear you have been influenced by protestant fundamentalist “takes” on the bible. Protestants tend to act as though a big black bible descended from heaven immediately after Jesus’s ascension, and Jesus told us to follow it as the sole guide to faith.

That didn’t happen

Jesus left His authority to the Church, whom He instructed to teach all nations. The Church did this for many decades before the books later included in the bible were ever written, and continued for nearly 400 years before the Bible was finally put together in 382 AD. So the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised, stayed with the Church, guiding it in truth for centuries before there was a bible.

Taking your other points.

No graven images

This commandment has been misinterpreted by Protestants. It refers to IDOLS of false gods, not images used in Christian worship.

How do we know this? In Exodus 25, God orders Moses to build an Ark to hold the commandments. He tells Moses how to build the Ark and cover it with pure gold, adding:

Exodus 25:18-19: "And make two cherubim (angels) out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other…The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them."
So here we have God himself **ordering ** Moses to produce religious statues of angels, immediately after the commandments had been given! Therefore the Protestant interpretation of this commandment must be incorrect.

1 Kings 6:29 says that the walls of the Temple were covered with “carved figures of cherubims, and palm trees, and open flowers, within & without”. _
1 Kings 6:31-35 tells that the doors to the inner sanctuary and the main doors of the Temple were also covered with gilded images of cherubim, palm trees and open flowers.
2 Chronicles 3:14 says that the great curtain of the temple was also covered in images of angels
2 Chronicles 4:2-4 shows that twelve metal bulls facing towards the four points of the compass, supported the “sea”, the ritual water tank of the priesthood. _
2 Chronicles 3:10-13 tells us that Solomon had two huge golden statues of angels constructed for the Holy of holies - in addition to the two on top of the Ark.

Does God ever object to this proliferation of images in the Temple?
No. In fact in 2 Chronicles 7: 12-18 he blesses the Temple indicating His divine pleasure. So the Temple of Solomon resembled a Catholic church more than a typical Protestant one!

So the idea that the Commandments forbid the use of images in Worship is bunk!

**I am the only intercesion **

Christians are actually asked to share in intercession.

"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5

From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:

  1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.

  2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.

  3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus’s unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.

Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.


#9

Not to get bashed…but can i ask a question…big I DONT UNDERSTAND here…

IF the Catholic church uses both the OT and NT why dont they follow all the rules that are in the OT like the Jews do?


#10

[quote=Karin]Not to get bashed…but can i ask a question…big I DONT UNDERSTAND here…

IF the Catholic church uses both the OT and NT why dont they follow all the rules that are in the OT like the Jews do?
[/quote]

Jesus didn’t follow all the OT rules. He didn’t not follow the ones that interfered with the worship of God (He called these “traditions of man”).

We do follow the natural laws given to us in the ten commandments.

NotWorthy


#11

[quote=NotWorthy]Jesus didn’t follow all the OT rules. He didn’t not follow the ones that interfered with the worship of God (He called these “traditions of man”).

We do follow the natural laws given to us in the ten commandments.

NotWorthy
[/quote]

Just a bit more info…can you give me an example of the “traditions of man”


#12

[quote=Karin]IF the Catholic church uses both the OT and NT why dont they follow all the rules that are in the OT like the Jews do?
[/quote]

Jesus came to create a new covenant. Many Jews of Jesus’ time recognized Him as their Messiah and became Christians.

Those who do not believe in Jesus follow the OT law because they do not believe that the promised one has already come or that a new law is in effect.

Elizabeth


#13

[quote=Karin]Just a bit more info…can you give me an example of the “traditions of man”
[/quote]

How about when the Pharisee’s questioned Jesus and his Apostles for eating without purifying themselves, or Jesus eating with unclean people (tax collectors and such). Jesus was chastised for exorcising demons on the Sabbath (or was it healing someone?).

NotWorthy


#14

[quote=ElizabethJoy]Jesus came to create a new covenant. Many Jews of Jesus’ time recognized Him as their Messiah and became Christians.

Those who do not believe in Jesus follow the OT law because they do not believe that the promised one has already come or that a new law is in effect.

Elizabeth
[/quote]

So in making this new covenant the followers of Jesus only have to follow the 10 commandments? I think I am missing something here.


#15

[quote=NotWorthy]How about when the Pharisee’s questioned Jesus and his Apostles for eating without purifying themselves, or Jesus eating with unclean people (tax collectors and such). Jesus was chastised for exorcising demons on the Sabbath (or was it healing someone?).

NotWorthy
[/quote]

is kosher law one of those things also and not having altars etc.???


#16

[quote=Karin]So in making this new covenant the followers of Jesus only have to follow the 10 commandments? I think I am missing something here.
[/quote]

No, not just the ten commandments. Those are still in force, but the coming of Jesus Christ affected most law in some way or other.

He repeated the commandments but He also told us that we were to love each other as HE loves us. Before He came, the commandment was to “love thy neighbor as thyself,” so this was a great leap in practice. :slight_smile:

He also told us that we were to love our enemies - another great leap in practice.

Jesus’ death also did away with the necessity of propitiatory sacrifices - He IS the Lamb of God, so Christians needn’t make burnt offerings.

Circumcision and kosher laws are likewise not necessary for Christians. (I’m not sure about what you’re asking with regard to the altar, though, so I’ll leave it for someone else. :slight_smile: )

Elizabeth


#17

[quote=ElizabethJoy]No, not just the ten commandments. Those are still in force, but the coming of Jesus Christ affected most law in some way or other.

He repeated the commandments but He also told us that we were to love each other as HE loves us. Before He came, the commandment was to “love thy neighbor as thyself,” so this was a great leap in practice. :slight_smile:

He also told us that we were to love our enemies - another great leap in practice.

Jesus’ death also did away with the necessity of propitiatory sacrifices - He IS the Lamb of God, so Christians needn’t make burnt offerings.

Circumcision and kosher laws are likewise not necessary for Christians. (I’m not sure about what you’re asking with regard to the altar, though, so I’ll leave it for someone else. :slight_smile: )

Elizabeth
[/quote]

Elizabeth-
Thank you. So one more question if I dare…so the “old” laws (traditions of man- kosher etc. ) went out the window once Jesus came…do I have that right? And why is that …why was it only when Jesus came that those laws did not apply any longer?


#18

[quote=Karin]Elizabeth-
Thank you. So one more question if I dare…so the “old” laws (traditions of man- kosher etc. ) went out the window once Jesus came…do I have that right? And why is that …why was it only when Jesus came that those laws did not apply any longer?
[/quote]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. The works of the law will not save anymore since Jesus became Incarnate.


#19

[quote=Karin]Elizabeth-
Thank you. So one more question if I dare…so the “old” laws (traditions of man- kosher etc. ) went out the window once Jesus came…do I have that right? And why is that …why was it only when Jesus came that those laws did not apply any longer?
[/quote]

I can’t remember the source (maybe a Scott Hahn book) but they way it was presented to me was the Old Testament Covenenants were meant to teach the Hebrews (Israel, Jews) obedience to God’s Will. Everytime they weren’t obedient, they suffered woes (famine, disease, slavery, and loss of the Promised Land to name a few). It was only through obedience, and God’s loving mercy, that they were able to again enjoy God’s presence among them.

In a way, you can see Israel as a “Type” for us. When we sin, we turn away from God, and are thus separated. When we turn back to God, He is there waiting for us with open arms. Jesus taught that, if we love God with all our hearts and all our souls, then we will also be obedient to His Will.

NotWorthy


#20

Katt33,

You will not find the words in the bible but the concept is there. You have listed so many things most of which have been covered in the forums.

Katt33 one of the things you will not find in the bible is that everything to be believed is in the bible. Do a search on sola scripture to find out all the arguments on why this is true.
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=54591&highlight=graven+image

You mention graven images. Do a search on that and you will find good explanations. forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=35546&highlight=graven+image
Traditions CANNOT contradict scripture.

You can however misinterpret take out of context and just plain misunderstand so I congratulate you on your enquiry. I would recommend in the future to tackle only one subject at a time and do a search on the subject to see if it has already been discussed.


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