Purgatory for Protestants?

[quote=“mcq72, post:94, topic:479853, full:true”]

We are judged the moment we die. We don’t wait for the Resurrection at the end of time to find out where we will spend eternity.

We have a perfect example given by Jesus, who does all the judging of every soul.

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment,

[comment]:
That’s as clear as it gets that immediately after death, we know where we will be spending eternity. As an aside, Abraham’s bosom isn’t heaven…yet.

[Jesus continues]
he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

That is clear, this is NOT talking about the period of final judgement and resurrection. The rich man’s family is still alive, while he is in torment.

At the end of time, (whenever that happens) and the resurrection of the body, body and soul are reunited (which could be billions of years from now) . If the soul has been in torment in hell, then they are now reunited with their body in hell,

Same for those in heaven. Souls in heaven are then reunited with their body.

Purgatory ceases to exist since there are no more births and deaths. At the end of time all souls that were in purgatory at that time, are now in heaven

Believe it. During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

I’m trying to find a working link to the mp3 so you can hear it from his own voice, but the links seem to be broken. But don’t just take my word for it - google “Pacwa Luther Duel” and read what others wrote after hearing.

My view of a Protestant is anyone who isn’t Catholic or Jewish or any Eastern religion.

When we first moved here, there were more Protestants than Catholics. Total culture shock. Thankfully, Mama found the Catholic Church nearest us pretty quickly after meeting a Catholic co-worker.

But when she went back to Protestant churches herself, she was totally shocked and very memorably said, “They didn’t used to preach and teach this way.” My response? “Thank God! Become Catholic.” (For me, it was a simple solution. For her, not so simple.)

What amazed me about Protestant churches was that they didn’t have Bibles in the pews for the people to read from. Everyone brought their own. I went to a number of Protestant churches while Mama was trying to find the nearest church. And in all of them, it was stressed that the KJV was the only authorized written Word of God. If you didn’t have a KJV, you weren’t reading the right Bible.

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.:scream:

Maccabees isn’t proof of people who die in mortal sin going to purgatory. People who die in mortal sin go to hell. People in hell can’t be saved. They are there forever. But since we don’t know who goes to hell when they die, Catholics pray for our dead. In purgatory a soul can benefit from prayer. Souls in heaven don’t need prayer. We need their prayers. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Again - I’ve been to Protestant churches where there are Bibles in the pews. The Methodist church I belonged to had them - the Baptist church across the street did. There wasn’t one for every person who could sit there, but there were several in each row. The caveat to that is in both churches, someone left some money when they died to buy Bibles so they would be available for people who might not be able to spare the money to buy a nice one in the era before Amazon.

Since all the little old ladies in that town talked to one another (and there was always good natured ribbing between those two groups) we always speculated that one mentioned it, and then the other one followed suit so as not to be outdone. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

There are Bibles in every military chapel I’ve ever been to, though I don’t take that as representative of anything. Our joke with that is they’re bought with end of year funds as a legitimate expense. (If there is money left over at the end of the year, your next year’s budget for that unit/department is always shorted by that amount. So you spend it on whatever legitimate expense you can find, because next year, you really might need it for something important.)

steido01: "During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

You said he used the word “apparantly” in reference to Luther. That’s not the same as claiming he had murdered someone. I’ll see if I can find it and will listen to it. Most likely, Father’s words are being taken out of their proper context.

I’m glad the churches you were in had Bibles in every pew. They all should, imo. Not everyone owns a Bible. It’s good if the church one frequents is able to provide them. They don’t here. In order to get a new Bible, you have to win whatever contest they are having at the time.

God bless the military and military chapels.:hugs:

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Ok sorry I had not read that far yet!

Do you know if you highlight the text you want then click on the little quote box that text will appear?

Actually his catechism is largely Catholic.

But, if you are going to accuse Luther of wrongdoing, it does not seem fair to do so if you are not going to read what he wrote. I guarantee you Fr. Mitch has read it.

Suffice to say that the Protestants who recognize only the authority of the KJV have no authority to determine that standard for anyone but themselves. That is their opinion. If they wish to use a truncated bible, no one can stop them (obviously) but that is not “authorative”. On the contrary, it rejects the authority established by Christ.

You did both, actually, thank you for my homework assignments.

It drives home the point that you appear to be making assertions without being willing to support them with anything but your opinion, or the opinion of someone else. Such sources have little credibility.

It certainly reflects an interested in being connected. It would seem to limit the quality of product, though.

Oh I think I would. I don’t suppose they wanted any credible sources for the assertion either?

Thanks, I will look. He is one of my favorite scholars. Just for the record, I don’t doubt that he said what you are claiming he said.

Apparently it is only the official bible for people who reject all the other translations? It seems to be an amorphous group that can only be found by personal interviews.

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Just rattling your cage, steve-b. April fools day and all that. :smile:

Well, if your major sources on Luther’s life are google and casual conversations, that might shed some light on it.

I was only ever given one Bible as a youth. It was a KJV (without deuterocanon) given to me by my Methodist grandmother on my first Holy Communion. I knew nothing about reading the bible, as it was not common for Catholics in those days, so I bogged myself down reading from Genesis. I think I never made it past Leviticus.

Years later I went away to college and bought an RSV (also without Deutero) because that is what the Protestant Campus fellowship I attended was using.

I don’t disagree with your definition. But it is impossible to categorize Protestants on any one doctrine, bible version, or practice because, as GK has said, they are all over the map.

It is ironic that they took a very Catholic position/practice about taking it upon themselves to determine the authorized version then restrict everyone to the use of it!

I thought killing someone in a duel was a legal practice? No one was supposed to be charged with murder because they both agreed that each would try to kill the other? I find it hard to believe that Luther would participate in a duel, but if he did, why would he feel guilty about winning the duel?

About a duel, from a Protestant website,

they say they sort of found, circumstantial evidence from a German source

“A German biographer named Hans-Joachim Neumann published a book in 1995 entitled Luthers Leiden (English title Luther’s Suffering) in which he puts together some circumstantial evidence that in 1505 Luther killed a friend of his in a duel, the friend’s name being Hieronimus Buntz, and that the reason Luther entered the monastery was to escape punishment.” from beggars

I’ll just say, stuff on the internet needs to be vetted carefully. People get labeled as saying things they don’t say or what they do say is so re contextualized it doesn’t come close to what was actually said.

Which Protestant Churches? Or better, please be specific about the communion?
In the 60 years I was Lutheran, I never saw the KJV used. So, either your statement is wrong or you don’t consider Lutherans Protestant.
Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

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To the OP: I hope you received the information you were seeking about Protestants in Purgatory, as it seems like this thread has gone off down some completely different topic of Protestants and the KJV.

If you have further questions about Protestants in Purgatory, feel free to ask (or start a new thread if this one is too derailed).

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It does not seem to be a likely source for Fr. Pacwa. I am still confused, if it was a duel, why would there be any punishment? And if he did enter the monastery out of guilt, why is that such a bad thing? People went to monasteries for all kinds of reasons. Not a few women for unwed pregnancies! He stayed, so his superiors must have determined he had a vocation somewhere along the way.

Certainly does limit what one might think of as protestant, to say that as a binding stricture on the term.

Of course, I have a idiosyncratic concept of what constitutes protestant, myself. Don’t expect anyone to acquiesce to it, though.

I didn’t start the question. I was responding to a charge attributed to Fr Pacwa. I showed a possible source of the charge.

I hate to jump into someone else’s conversation… but…

For what it is worth, my Protestant/Evangelical church has bibles in the pews(actually chairs) and every week we tell the congregation that if you don’t have a Bible you are welcome to take one as our gift to you. The Pew Bibles are ESV, which is what we generally use during worship. However, from time to time other versions are used for Scripture reading during the service. We even read part of Isaiah 53 in the Good New Bible paraphrase as part of our Easter service yesterday.

Most Evangelical Churches primarily use whatever version the Pastor normally preaches from during the worship service. I’ve been in churches where this is NIV, ESV, NASB, and NKJV. Also, churches have a choice about what version the Sunday School material will use. I know at Lifeway (Baptist Books stores) You can get the same Sunday School books with either KJV, NKJV, or HCSB. I’m not 100% certain but I seem to remember NIV and ESV versions of the Sunday School books as well.

Granted, 40 or 50 years ago almost all Evangelical Churches used the KJV exclusively. Since that time many really good English Translations have been made available.

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Howdy Jon.

a very True statement

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I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within the one True Church

I was raised in a United Presbyterian church. They adopted the Revised Standard Translation as their official Bible as soon as it was produced in 1948.

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