Purgatory for Protestants?


#114

steido01: "During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

You said he used the word “apparantly” in reference to Luther. That’s not the same as claiming he had murdered someone. I’ll see if I can find it and will listen to it. Most likely, Father’s words are being taken out of their proper context.


#115

I’m glad the churches you were in had Bibles in every pew. They all should, imo. Not everyone owns a Bible. It’s good if the church one frequents is able to provide them. They don’t here. In order to get a new Bible, you have to win whatever contest they are having at the time.

God bless the military and military chapels.:hugs:


#116

Ok sorry I had not read that far yet!

Do you know if you highlight the text you want then click on the little quote box that text will appear?

Actually his catechism is largely Catholic.

But, if you are going to accuse Luther of wrongdoing, it does not seem fair to do so if you are not going to read what he wrote. I guarantee you Fr. Mitch has read it.

Suffice to say that the Protestants who recognize only the authority of the KJV have no authority to determine that standard for anyone but themselves. That is their opinion. If they wish to use a truncated bible, no one can stop them (obviously) but that is not “authorative”. On the contrary, it rejects the authority established by Christ.

You did both, actually, thank you for my homework assignments.

It drives home the point that you appear to be making assertions without being willing to support them with anything but your opinion, or the opinion of someone else. Such sources have little credibility.

It certainly reflects an interested in being connected. It would seem to limit the quality of product, though.

Oh I think I would. I don’t suppose they wanted any credible sources for the assertion either?

Thanks, I will look. He is one of my favorite scholars. Just for the record, I don’t doubt that he said what you are claiming he said.


#117

Apparently it is only the official bible for people who reject all the other translations? It seems to be an amorphous group that can only be found by personal interviews.


#118

Just rattling your cage, steve-b. April fools day and all that. :smile:

Well, if your major sources on Luther’s life are google and casual conversations, that might shed some light on it.

I was only ever given one Bible as a youth. It was a KJV (without deuterocanon) given to me by my Methodist grandmother on my first Holy Communion. I knew nothing about reading the bible, as it was not common for Catholics in those days, so I bogged myself down reading from Genesis. I think I never made it past Leviticus.

Years later I went away to college and bought an RSV (also without Deutero) because that is what the Protestant Campus fellowship I attended was using.

I don’t disagree with your definition. But it is impossible to categorize Protestants on any one doctrine, bible version, or practice because, as GK has said, they are all over the map.

It is ironic that they took a very Catholic position/practice about taking it upon themselves to determine the authorized version then restrict everyone to the use of it!

I thought killing someone in a duel was a legal practice? No one was supposed to be charged with murder because they both agreed that each would try to kill the other? I find it hard to believe that Luther would participate in a duel, but if he did, why would he feel guilty about winning the duel?


#119

About a duel, from a Protestant website,

they say they sort of found, circumstantial evidence from a German source

“A German biographer named Hans-Joachim Neumann published a book in 1995 entitled Luthers Leiden (English title Luther’s Suffering) in which he puts together some circumstantial evidence that in 1505 Luther killed a friend of his in a duel, the friend’s name being Hieronimus Buntz, and that the reason Luther entered the monastery was to escape punishment.” from beggars

I’ll just say, stuff on the internet needs to be vetted carefully. People get labeled as saying things they don’t say or what they do say is so re contextualized it doesn’t come close to what was actually said.


#120

Which Protestant Churches? Or better, please be specific about the communion?
In the 60 years I was Lutheran, I never saw the KJV used. So, either your statement is wrong or you don’t consider Lutherans Protestant.
Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.


#121

To the OP: I hope you received the information you were seeking about Protestants in Purgatory, as it seems like this thread has gone off down some completely different topic of Protestants and the KJV.

If you have further questions about Protestants in Purgatory, feel free to ask (or start a new thread if this one is too derailed).


#122

It does not seem to be a likely source for Fr. Pacwa. I am still confused, if it was a duel, why would there be any punishment? And if he did enter the monastery out of guilt, why is that such a bad thing? People went to monasteries for all kinds of reasons. Not a few women for unwed pregnancies! He stayed, so his superiors must have determined he had a vocation somewhere along the way.


#123

Certainly does limit what one might think of as protestant, to say that as a binding stricture on the term.

Of course, I have a idiosyncratic concept of what constitutes protestant, myself. Don’t expect anyone to acquiesce to it, though.


#124

I didn’t start the question. I was responding to a charge attributed to Fr Pacwa. I showed a possible source of the charge.


#125

I hate to jump into someone else’s conversation… but…

For what it is worth, my Protestant/Evangelical church has bibles in the pews(actually chairs) and every week we tell the congregation that if you don’t have a Bible you are welcome to take one as our gift to you. The Pew Bibles are ESV, which is what we generally use during worship. However, from time to time other versions are used for Scripture reading during the service. We even read part of Isaiah 53 in the Good New Bible paraphrase as part of our Easter service yesterday.

Most Evangelical Churches primarily use whatever version the Pastor normally preaches from during the worship service. I’ve been in churches where this is NIV, ESV, NASB, and NKJV. Also, churches have a choice about what version the Sunday School material will use. I know at Lifeway (Baptist Books stores) You can get the same Sunday School books with either KJV, NKJV, or HCSB. I’m not 100% certain but I seem to remember NIV and ESV versions of the Sunday School books as well.

Granted, 40 or 50 years ago almost all Evangelical Churches used the KJV exclusively. Since that time many really good English Translations have been made available.


#126

Howdy Jon.

a very True statement


#127

I wouldn’t argue the point. There are instead various (sadly too many) traditions within the one True Church


#128

I was raised in a United Presbyterian church. They adopted the Revised Standard Translation as their official Bible as soon as it was produced in 1948.


#129

Steve, you’re taking this from Beggars All. James Swan was reacting to what Pacwa said; he cannot be the source of Pacwa’s claim.

The 1995 book Swan referenced on his site is pretty much the only source that has ever made such an accusation against Luther. That book, as Swan notes, was written by a maxillofacial surgeon. Not exactly a theologian or historian. Furthermore, the point of that surgeon’s book was to retroactively diagnose Luther with various afflictions. Pseudoscience, at best; anti-Luther propaganda, at worst. And his source for claiming Luther killed another man? One single sentence in the second-hand Table Talks, interpreted in a way no one else ever had.

That Pacwa would repeat such a spurious claim demonstrates either a pre-existing anti-Luther bias, or ignorance of historical evidence. In either case, he is not to be considered an expert on Martin Luther.


#130

And sadly too many willing to defend ALL THOSE TRADITIONS outside the one True Church.


#131

Sadly, you and me and all of us.


#132

Swain was apparently pointing to the book that made the claim Luther was in a duel and killed his friend. The real question is, did Fr Pacwa really say what he is accused of saying?


#133

As you know, I don’t defend the divisions that happened.


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