Purgatory**HELP!**


#1

:frowning: I’m tired of going around in my head with this topic. Not only for my own personal understanding but also because I’m in a friendly discourse with a dear friend. She sent me the article below. How do I respond to something like this?

Personally this was one of the hurdles that I thought I had leapt over but maybe I fell flat on my face without realizing it. I went through RCIA in '04 and it’s such a battle for me coming from a background where I was immersed in scripture study. I feel that trying to obtain all this knowledge without a personal relationship with Christ is futile. All that matters to me is that I may KNOW Him and to make Him KNOWN!. It’s a fight not to get into a mode of just going through the motions and understanding why you do what you do or believe what you believe is for a purpose. Can anybody help me with a simple answer??:confused:

Question: “What does the Bible say about Purgatory?”

Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology, Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

        Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “but He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

        Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for Heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.



        The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say “away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire.” No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.


#2

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp


#3

Simple…

For starters Purgatory is NOT a place, but a process…

Saying someone is in Purgatory is like saying someone is Labor. A person isn’t in the physical location called Labor, but the Process of Labor.

Ask your friend this…
Does she have a problem that Christ died for our sins? she will say NO!
Does she have a problem with the idea that Those in Christ are Cleansed of their sins? She will say no…
Ask her if she has a problem if you say Christ will Cover her sins with a white robe? She will say no
Ask her If she will get into heaven if she does have sin on her soul. She should say no (if she doesn’t She has a very bad biblical problem)
Ask her if the cleansing takes place throughout her life… She should say yes.

Then tell her, Purgatory is the name for the final time God will do that. If you are in the state of purgatory, you have already been Justified… Someone going to hell will not be cleansed.

how long does it take? dunno
Is it painful? some scriptural indication it might be, but dunno

Nothing anti biblical about it at all…

If she says something like “But thats not what I was taught…” Just tell her I’m sorry you were taught that… but what you were taught was wrong. But also ask her… if this is what purgatory means, would she have a problem with it. The only way she CAN say no is if she is just being defiant at that point

In Christ


#4

If Jesus truly “paid the penalty” (I hate that phrase) for our sins in the way you claim then we wouldn’t suffer and die here on earth. Why do we suffer and die if, as you say, Jesus delivered us from suffering? The answer is, you misunderstand what Jesus did, and what He did not do.


#5

TheHem wrote

“it’s such a battle for me coming from a background where I was immersed in scripture study. I feel that trying to obtain all this knowledge without a personal relationship with Christ is futile. All that matters to me is that I may KNOW Him and to make Him KNOWN!”

Nothing wrong with being immersed in scripture study :slight_smile:

“Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.”

“2Ti 3:15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures which can instruct thee to salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

“2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:”

“Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.”

As we can see here God’s word is our guide and our light to keep us on His path:)
"1Jn 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you: but as his unction teacheth you of all things and is truth and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him. "

Here we see that the Holy Spirit teaches us ALL things!

You raise a very good question about purgatory. I find a simple answer to the legitimacy of the doctrine of purgatory. Scripture is explicitly clear that death is a sleep even Christ himself taught this.If we are in a state of sleep there is no possible way that there is a purgatory, literally or figuratively . I made a post on this subject at forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=136697
This is just a few verses on it there are more. I really love that you are so sincere about making God known to others it is so awesome to hear that! Sadly in this day and time there are few who could care less. This is our whole purpose to spread God’s love and His Word to others, I hope that you ask God to show you His Truth and will for your life :slight_smile: God bless and if you have any questions feel free to message me.


#6

Hi,

Bishop Fulton Sheen gave a great talk on what Purgatory is. They have all of his recordings in MP3 format at:

americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

The talk itself is on the following link. Listen to it. It is wonderful!!!

americancatholictruthsociety.com/sheen/45Purgatory.mp3


#7

The problem with what was written by this person is that it brings up in the course of a few paragraphs material that would take several pages to cover. I’ll try to do it as briefly as possible, but I’ll try to be thorough, as well. I’ll post some answers, and some links to other things I’ve written which will give the necessary background information to understand.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “but He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

This is an interesting one, because it actually supports the doctrine of Purgatory. A very prominent Protestant apologist was cornered on this issue and had to sneak out of the question. I have never seen this particular person so flummoxed. I will explain in a moment. First, you have to understand that as Catholics, we believe (and the Scriptures teach) that there are two penalties for sin. There is what we call the temporal penalty, and then the eternal penalty. The eternal penalty is seperation from God - Hell. The temporal penalty is the punishment that justice demands of wrong acts.

For example, say that a person commits the sin of being *extremely *mean and unloving to his parents. Now, this sin warrants the eternal seperation fro God. However, there is also a more “feelable” or “physical” punishment that comes from it. He may get kicked out of his house, or at the very leat have an uncomfortable relationship with his parents after. Think of a person who commits adultery. This sin warrants eternal damnation, but it also comes with the temporal punishments of estrangement from her husband, or perhaps a sexually transmitted disease, or something else.

Now we see this in the Bible. A good place is with David. When David commits adultery with Bathsheba, He is deserving of death, according to the Mosaic Law. He is condemned to Hell. When David repents, God forgives him - he will no longer suffer death, no longer suffer Hellfire - but God also measures out a temporal penalty. Consider the passage, from 2 Samuel 12:

13David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD,[a] the child who is born to you shall die.”

Note that Nathan the prophet actually says “The Lord has put away your sin.” The Lord had forgiven him - but there was still punishment.

Now, the two aspects to the penalty for sin can be seen in the original sin of Adam. In fact, all aspects of every sin can be seen in the original sin - it is a fantastic passage for meditation to learn about sin itself. This is why it was the first one - in it was contained all things about all sins. Consider what happened - there were two penalties to the sin. First, there was the seperation from God, as Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden. They no loner walked with God. Now, John, in his gospel, records Jesus saying, “And this is eternal life: to know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” Eternal life is literally defined as knowing God.

For a more in depth assesment of this, please see www.soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml. This article will also help with your understanding of Purgatory (and many other things) in general. I was going to provide it as one of the articles I linked to.

So, Adam and Eve suffered the expulsion from the garden - whereas in the garden, the “walked” with God - they knew Him, which is eternal life - they were now outside of the garden, where they didn’t know God. However, there was also temporal punishment. The land would be harder for Adam to till. Eve’s pain in childbearing would be increased. They would both suffer physical death. We see that the original sin warranted both temporal punishment and eternal punishment. Note that temporal doesn’t mean ‘temporary.’ It wasn’t as though pain would only be increased in child bearing for a certain amount of time, or that they would only be physically dead for so long. It’s just a type of punishment that is different from eternal seperation from God.

see next post


#8

Christ did die on the cross for us, making it possible for us to be forgiven of eternal punishment and to be reunited with God. His death also earned us the possibility of paying the temporal debt we owe to God. Both are only by Christ’s cross. If not for that, we would never be able to be reunited with God, and we would never be able to be free from the temporal punishment to enjoy Him even if we were reunited. The Grace earned by Christ’s death allows us to actually pay that debt of temporal punishment, because now we are suffering along with Christ, and by the power of Christ.

The reason I say that this quote actually supports the Catholic point is because we do have to suffer in this life. Once we come to Christ, our everyday sufferings don’t just go away. We know from the Scriptures that these various sufferings didn’t exist before original sin, but we are still subject to them. We still suffer in all sorts of ways, and not just from hard to till land or painful childbirth, but from our own sins, too. When I sin, I suffer for it. People get upset with me, or lose money, or something else causes me pain. If Jesus paid all this temporal suffering for us, then why do we still have to suffer? Why is it that when we sin, we still suffer? Is God just a sadistic God Who wants to put us through pain even though it’s already been paid for? This is what the Protestant position ultimately, without their intention, comes down to. We still do have to suffer, so either there is some aspect of our sin that we still have to, with God’s Grace, pay for, or God has either refused to or is incapable of sparing us that suffering even though it’s been paid for.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

This argument is rather weak. Yes, the passage speaks of the believer “escaping through the flames.” To escape ‘through’ anything, however, means to go through it. The passage does not say the believers escape from the flames, but through them. If it really meant that only the works go through the flames but the people do not have to suffer them, it would say that they escaped from the flames. By saying they escape through/I] them, the passage insists that the people do indeed go through the flames.


#9

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for Heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

This paragraph is filled with problems. First, it alludes to the nature of Chrit’s sacrifice. For a very brief (relative to the depth of the topic :p) overview of the Protestant understanding of Christ’s sacrifice, the problems with it, and the reality of it, please see here. For a deeper understanding complete with an explanation of the Mass, please read the link at the end of that page.

As for the meritorious works, it is important to understand that meritorious works contribute to salvation only because they are done in God’s Grace. Without His Grace, no works would be of any value. Works done in God’s Grace are really Graces themselves anyways, because without Grace, we couldn’t do them. The article I linked to in my previous post (about Salvation by Love in Catholic Dogma) explains this with extensive Scripture citations. I would only say the following extra points here:

[LIST=1]
*]As was already mentioned, we know that our suffering is necessary for the cleansing of out temporal punishment, otherwise something is very wrong.
*]St. Paul himself explains that, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” (Colossians 1:24) St. Paul knew that our sufferings contributed to something that Christ didn’t do for us. Now Christ absolutely did earn for us the Grace that makes this suffering of any value in fulfilling our temporal debt. Without His sacrifice, we could suffer for eternity and it wouldn’t take one bit of that debt away. However, with the Grace He earned for us, our suffering can indeed pay that debt.
*]Hebrews 12:14 urges believers to “Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” If believers were already cleansed, sanctified, and so forth as the quote claims, then there would be no need to strive for this holiness. Believers would already possess it.
*]Hebrews also tells us that believers are not yet sanctified, but are “being sanctified” (10:14). [Note a few translations say “are sanctified.” This is an ambiguous translation, which is accurate *technically, but does not convey the meaning of the phrase very well in English. This is why most translations opt for “being sanctified.”
*]The article about salvation by Love provides other Bible passages which speak about growing in holiness, being sanctified progressively, and other such things. (See especially the paragraph on 2 Corinthians)
[/LIST]


#10

The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

This has all already been addressed above. I would only add that Jesus sacrifice was perfect and complete in that it earned all that is necessary for our salvation, but His sacrifice is also eternal in that the actual presentation of it is everlasting. This is explained in great depth in those articles I linked, especially the one about the Mass. Here I will just quote Hebrews 7:25:

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."

Note here that it says Jesus is always making intercession for people. This indicates that His work on the cross is not over - He is always making this intercession. His death is over, that will never happen again, but His intercession is always ongoing, which is why the sacrifice is eternal. This intercession is a part of the sacrifice. This is explained more clearly in theMass article I linked to earlier. My only point here is to show that the idea that everything was all done, as this quotation claims, is contrary to Scripture.

[quote]For believers, after death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say “away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire.” No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

Not much here to speak about. I’ll just say this:

[LIST=1]
*]Those in Purgatory are considered to be with the Lord. They are not with Him completely or directly, as those in Heaven are, but they are much more with Him than we are here on earth.
*]To be away from my job means to be home with my family, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that there is an hour long car ride in between.
[/LIST]

Ask any questions you need.

God bless! :slight_smile:
[/quote]


#11

Interesting.
The doctrine of Purgatory is the main reason I left protestantism.
It is THE most comforting doctrine, and knowing I can pray and pray for my loved ones there, is happiness personified.
Also, it makes so much sense!


#12

[TheHem;1981697]

Question: “What does the Bible say about Purgatory?”

Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology, Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Absolutely IS, it is the final step of ones sanctification. When we are in the process of being justified in life, being justification is a process, (see Mt 10:22, Phil 2:12, 1 Pet 1:9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:8-10) most all of us aren’t made completely holy (or sanctified), in that we don’t fully nor completely abandon or repent from EVERY single venial sin, like to habitual ones, therefore those sins we will not abandon in this life are still attachments on our soul and we bring them into the next life, note: these are ONLY venial sins. And since we must strive for the holiness that which without no one will see God, (Heb 12:14) and that heaven is without sin (Rev 21:27), and in God’s presence and the presence of sin are incompatible, therefore somewhere between death and glory (beatific vision) there has to be some purification to rid our souls of the sins we would not abandon in our earthly life. 1 Cor 3:15 where a person suffers lose, but is still saved as through fire (the fire representing God’s love which burns away our attachements to sin). We are also purged in this life as it says in Hebrews that God chastens those whom He loves.

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Actually the passage is speaking of a “saved” person yet still suffers some lose after death and through fire. How can we suffer lose after death if we all just go to heaven? By not being fully sanctified at death.

For believers, after death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say “away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire.” No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord’s presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

“Ultimately sanctified?” So, if according to this statement, either one is completely sanctified in this life or after death comes, either way we are “ultimately sanctified.” This person has just admitted some sort of purgation prior to or after death.
Purgatory IS being with God. Christ’s death on the cross was sufficient to wipe away ALL sin, however it being completed in us isn’t because of Jesus’ sacrfice, but because of us, again as I said because we won’t fully cooperate and yield to His will even for he most venial sin.


#13

Another way to look at it is:
The store owner may forgive the shoplifter.
But the shoplifter still has to pay for the merchandise and either do community service or, perhaps, do jail time.

We must pay for the sins we we commit by deed or by failure to act. (the Confeitor)


#14

Unfortunately I cannot concur that purgatory is scriptural, scripture is very very clear as to our state in death.
" Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening"

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means "the grave"
When dead we can’t love,hate,work,reason,have wisdom,knowledge nor can we praise God.

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

“Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more…”

So if we have no knowledge or any kind of emotions or ability to communicate in death what is the reason?

“Job 14:10 But man when he shall be dead, and stripped and consumed, I pray you where is he?
Job 14:11 As if the waters should depart out of the sea, and an emptied river should be dried up;
Job 14:12 So man when he is fallen asleep shall not rise again; till the heavens be broken, he shall not awake, nor rise up out of his sleep.”

Note when Job says how long the dead sleep…“until the heavens be broken up” Note how Job agrees with what Paul writes.

"1Th 4:15 (4:14) For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept.
1Th 4:16 (4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. "

Note again the dead sleep until Christ’s second coming.

Let’s look at our Lord’s doctrine on the subject.

“Joh 11:11 These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead.”

"Mat 9:24 He said: Give place, for the girl is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. "

“Mar 5:39 And going in, he saith to them Why make you this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mar 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn…”

“Luk 8:52 And all wept and mourned for her. But he said: Weep not. The maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 But he taking her by the hand, cried out, saying: Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit returned: and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.”

Note here our Lord was laughed to scorn for teaching the Biblical doctrine of death being a sleep!


#15

The belief that when we die our soul or spirit goes back to God is correct.

"Ecc 12:7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it… "

What is incorrect is the definition of a soul or spirit is. spirit comes from the word ruach in hebrew and pneuma in greek(that’s where we get the word pneumatic) both definitions mean nothing more than wind,breath or a blast of air. Does our breath go back to God when we die? of course. Did God give us breath?

"Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. "

"Job 27:3 As long as breath remaineth in me, and the spirit of God in my nostrils, "

"Isa 2:22 Cease ye therefore from the man, whose breath is in his nostrils, for he is reputed high. "

notice the two elements we are made of… earth and God’s breath. Only when God breathed into Adams nostrils did he become a living soul. So what is a soul? As we can see it is the combination of earth and God’s lifegiving breat in our nostrils. Let’s look at Ecc. again

"Ecc 12:7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it. "

“Eze 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.”

"Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, the same shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father shall not bear the iniquity of the son: the justice of the just shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. "

If we look up soul it refers to a breathing creature or the physical animal characteristics. Scripture also refers to animals as souls.
As we can plainly see spirit is nothing more than the breath which God gave us!

When do the people who are asleep wake up?

"1Th 4:15 (4:14) For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept.
1Th 4:16 (4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. "

"Joh 5:28 Wonder not at this: for the hour cometh wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
Joh 5:29 And they that have done good things shall come forth unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. "

"1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. "

Notice verse 53 only at the second coming will God’s saints receive immortality! If we had immortality now there would be no death as we see in verse 54!

As we can see scripture plainly and explicitly teaches that we sleep until Christs second coming at which time we will receive immortality . There is no mention of souls going to either heaven or hell immediately after death that is a Hellenistic teaching popularized by Plato.

How does this tie in with the doctrine of purgatory? Simply. Scripture plainly teaches there is no mental or physical processes functioning when we die. It plainly states we are asleep. Even our Lord clearly taught this! We cannot be in this state and still be either in Heaven hell or purgatory. I see the Scripture clearly denouncing the doctrine of purgatory! God bless! :slight_smile:


#16

So who are the 24 elders?

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

[size=2]Who are the cloud of witnesses?
Heb 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

God bless,
Maria[/size]


#17

First, the person is to be commended for actually referencing valid Catholic sources. That is very rare! The crux of the confusion lies in her thinking that Catholics think that those in purgatory have been forgiven their sins by some means other than Jesus Christ. 'Tis not true. The short of it is this. Your average Protestant (if there is such a thing) thinks that they were “justified” (made right with God) through faith, and then the person who has been made right with God must then live a life of increasing holiness (“sanctification”). Cf. 1 Thess 4:3. That is all true, actually, although the Catholic might have to qualify what is meant by “faith” in the New Testament. But for purgatory, all we are talking about is a continuation of that process of “sanctification” after death, before the person enters Heaven. So the question to your Protestant friend should be, do you think you will be completely sanctified by the time your moment of death comes around? If not, then how do you expect to get into heaven, as nothing unholy can enter heaven? She probably will say something like, I will be made pure by Jesus so that I can enter Heaven. Well. Guess what? That’s what Catholics call purgatory.

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares…Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient.

Actually it’s not to say that at all. It’s to say that Jesus “suffered” so that we might be delivered from the eternal consequences of our sins. For the fact that we are still subject to their temporal consequences is quite evident. I.e., we die, we get sick, our passions are all out of wack. Two quick verses:

  1. “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church (Col 1:24).” How does that square with what she’s saying?

  2. “the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” (Heb 12:6)
    Jesus has died for our forgiveness. But God still chastises us for our sins. Again, the distinction between temporal and eternal punishments for sins.

To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation

It’s not, though. See Hebrews 12:6, previously quoted.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15,

This is not the primary one, necessarily, but it is a good one. But the verse is clearly speaking of the purification of our works, the good ones (gold etc) being purified of the bad ones (straw etc.) through fire. That’s what fire does, and is clearly the image Paul is drawing on. Your friend seems to be succumbing to an excessive literalism, here, in addition to thinking that the Church teaches we go through fire, but that is most likely to be understood figuratively. The point is, we will be purified (sanctified) so that, already forgiven by Christ of the eternal consequences of our sins, we may be cleansed (sanctified) of the temporal ones.

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once for all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27).

Actually we do understand that. The Church views Christ’s merits as “superabundantly” (cf. CCC 411) making amends for our sins. I.e., more than enough. Infinitely more than enough.

The rest of her stuff is simply more of the same. Christ HAS died for our salvation. All our sins have, are, and will be forgiven, provided we repent them. All through Christ. But that doesn’t mean there are no punishments for our sins. One more verse:
“That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” (1 Cor 11:30). In this verse, Paul says that Christians have died (punishment) because of sins committed (eating and drinking without discerning the body). Christians were punished for their sins. With death. And if they still died in sanctifying grace, which your friend would no doubt affirm, then they died in God friendship, nevertheless, with God’s punishment on their soul. What next? Guess what? Purification. Purgatory.


#18

Have a look at this.


#19

These are great questions Maria. Rev. does not tell us exactly who the 24 elders are. It does however point to where they came from.
“Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book and to open the seals thereof: because thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation:”

It is very clear here that the 24 elders are saints redeemed from the earth. From the 2 previous posts on the state of the dead show us beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no existence, thought, or actions in death so we have to deduct that it is not some spirit forms of humanity. I see a possible explanation in scripture.
“Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,”

I believe that Christ took some “firstfruits” home with Him. This could be a possible explanation. Although scripture does not positively identify who the 24 elders are.

As to your question about Hebrews 12:1 Let’s look at several verses immediately preceding that verse in chapter 11.

"Heb 11:36 And others had trial of mockeries and stripes: moreover also of bands and prisons.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted:
Heb 11:38 Of whom the world was not worthy: wandering in deserts, in mountains and in dens and in caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us. "

"Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Heb 12:2 Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God. "

Remember that in the manuscripts there were no chapters or verses or even punctuation. So sometimes a passage is cut in the middle by a chapter. We see this here. Paul is describing the trials God’s people had gone through previously and exhorting believers that if these people who had suffered and died for God could endure these trials we should set aside our sins and press diligently forward for Christ! So we can see here that the martyrs were a cloud of witnesses for God . Interestingly enough the word “witnesses” there comes from the greek word “martus” which means a witness or a martyr.

Hope this helps answer your questions and God bless :slight_smile:


#20

I would pose a question to the theology that 1 Cor. 3:10-15 is referring to purgatory. How long did Paul and the other apostles spend in purgatory? If we are going to interpret this passage as referring to purgatory we must look at the whole meaning!

"1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. "

EVERY MAN! This would include Peter,Andrew,John,Philip, all the rest of the apostles and the people the catholic church has sainted it says every man!

“Act 2:37 Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren?”

"Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. "

Here we see scripture plainly pointing to Peter and the Apostles as men. 1 cor 3 says ALL MEN must have their works tried. Really surprises me that the Church would teach that Peter the Apostles and other icons had to go through purgatory!


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