Purgatory Question...


#1

Okay, so I was in a discussion here about purgatory and a friend began asking me some questions that I was not entirely sure about. (I’m Phishphan47, and the gentleman in question is Praey).

Basically he was claiming that “the sin nature is no longerl part of the spirit” when we become Christians. This being the case, it is only the “flesh” which sins, so a spirit needs no purgation. He also seems to put forth a strong dichotomy between “flesh” and “spirit” but tries to accept we are both…

How would you explain that a Christian can sin in light of Paul’s writings in Romans?

Any thoughts?

Also, any good Catholics who would like to join the Bolt Community, we could use more good Catholics.


#2

When I sin, it is I who sin. And sin is something I am responsible for.


#3

[quote=aphisherofmen]Okay, so I was in a discussion here about purgatory and a friend began asking me some questions that I was not entirely sure about. (I’m Phishphan47, and the gentleman in question is Praey).

Basically he was claiming that “the sin nature is no longerl part of the spirit” when we become Christians. This being the case, it is only the “flesh” which sins, so a spirit needs no purgation. He also seems to put forth a strong dichotomy between “flesh” and “spirit” but tries to accept we are both…

How would you explain that a Christian can sin in light of Paul’s writings in Romans?

Any thoughts?

Also, any good Catholics who would like to join the Bolt Community, we could use more good Catholics.
[/quote]

How about by throwing him a quote from Paul:

**1 Cor 11:29-30
**For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

Paul is saying if you receive the Body of Christ unworthily, you are sinning. He places this sin as the reason a “considerable number are dying.” Clearly, Paul is saying that sin has a considerable effect on the body, and if that’s the case, imagine the impact on the soul.

Peace and God bless!

Eric


#4

Thanks! I hope to read more!

I’m kinda the resident Catholic Theologian on the board…I can usually handle most of the questions that arise pretty well…sometimes I just need a second opinion!

Pax Christi,
-Justin


#5

[quote=aphisherofmen]Thanks! I hope to read more!

I’m kinda the resident Catholic Theologian on the board…I can usually handle most of the questions that arise pretty well…sometimes I just need a second opinion!

Pax Christi,
-Justin
[/quote]

Hey Justin, I was reading your responses on the bolt.com board, and I have to say that I’m impressed. Go get 'em! (and bring them to the Holy Mother Church!) :slight_smile:

Peace and God bless!

Eric


#6

[quote=aphisherofmen]Okay, so I was in a discussion here about purgatory and a friend began asking me some questions that I was not entirely sure about. (I’m Phishphan47, and the gentleman in question is Praey).

Basically he was claiming that “the sin nature is no longerl part of the spirit” when we become Christians. This being the case, it is only the “flesh” which sins, so a spirit needs no purgation. He also seems to put forth a strong dichotomy between “flesh” and “spirit” but tries to accept we are both…

How would you explain that a Christian can sin in light of Paul’s writings in Romans?

Any thoughts?

Also, any good Catholics who would like to join the Bolt Community, we could use more good Catholics.
[/quote]

Hi aphisherofmen,
I am not a catholic and in a sense I believe in born in the flesh to sin, dead, and coming alive in the spirit when the Holy Spirit leads us to Christ and we believe. Unless we sin those two sins and lose the grace of the Holy Spirit, by His strength if necessary, we will be made to stand, even if it is by fire. God made us and He knows us.
But to answer your question, " How would you explain that a Christian can sin in light of Paul’s writings in Romans’? Well forget Romans for a moment.
Put God to the test if you don’t believe Him. Go out and deliberately sin and see what happens. Explain that you are testing Him. If you are one of those who must experience everything for themselves as Thomas did, when he put his finger and hand into Christ’s wounds, go ahead.
For myself, wild horses wouldnt make me deliberately sin, not that I am without sin, because I am weak except where the Holy Spirit protects me, but bit by bit I am moving in a holy direction.
Christ has cuffed me and I praise Him for it and count it as a blessing but, I wont go there deliberately. I dont like being cuffed, it hurts and is shamefull.
Does he claim to be perfect?
If he acknowledges sin,does sin in the flesh count for anything in his opinion?
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG


#7

I think 1 John 1:5-10 is pretty clear:

5
Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all.
6
If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth.
7
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
8
If we say, “We are without sin,” we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9
If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
10
If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Why bother to confess our sins if they are going to be shed along with our bodies, as your friend seems to believe?


#8

[quote=aphisherofmen] Basically he was claiming that “the sin nature is no longerl part of the spirit” when we become Christians. This being the case, it is only the “flesh” which sins, so a spirit needs no purgation. He also seems to put forth a strong dichotomy between “flesh” and “spirit” but tries to accept we are both…

[/quote]

Man! I thought St. Dominic took care of those Albigensians for good! Old heresies die hard!


#9

When a man sins, the entire person sins, not just the physical body. Since the soul moves the body, isn’t it subject to justice and purgation more, compared to the body, just as when a man fires a gun to commit murder, the man, not the gun, is held responsible?

Gerry :slight_smile:


#10

[quote=RobedWithLight]When a man sins, the entire person sins, not just the physical body. Since the soul moves the body, isn’t it subject to justice and purgation more, compared to the body, just as when a man fires a gun to commit murder, the man, not the gun, is held responsible?

Gerry :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hi RobedWithLight,
Great post which raises some very interesting questions.
When we believe in Christ we have our hearts circumcised by the Holy Spirit. Christ the Son of Man grows in us and we also have the Holy Spirit living in us. Now Jesus doesnt sin and neither does the Holy Spirit. Now in the Lord’s prayer we pray to God that His will be done on earth (our flesh and inner man) as it is in heaven ( our flesh and inner man). This means done the same way, God’s way according to God’s will. As Jesus grows in us we grow in His likeness, the inner man grows and the will of the flesh ( sin) recedes.

See John 5:19 “Then Jesus answered and said to them,” Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does , the son also does in like manner."

So we can see that Jesus was not Rambo, but His eyes were open and He could see into the Kingdom of heaven and He only did what the Father did and in the same way. So when God healed the man in the kingdom of heaven ( a copy being on earth) Jesus did also and in the same way, ie mud and spittle etc. Jesus obeyed His Father in all things, " For I do nothing of myself"
In many parables the words say about people being cast out of the kindgom of heaven and sorted etc. When we believe in Christ we become members of the kindgom of God, which is here on earth. But the Holy Spirit wont leave you and so you are not cast out of the kingdom of God, you die and leave it for paradise or hell, waiting for the resurrection of the godly and ungodly and judgement except those killed for there witness in the first resurrection during Tribulation. Those live and reign with Christ a 1000 years and do not face the 2nd death which all else must face.
So No, the whole body does not sin, Christ and the Holy Spirit and the inner man, but flesh does as sin is in the flesh, but through the power of the Holy Spirit we are to put sin to death and become one in Him.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG


#11

EdwinG,

You’ve got to stop hanging around with those Alibgensians! :slight_smile: Your thesis is intriguing; can you draw out your point further and show us how it does not lead to antinomianism?


#12

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