Purgatory...really?


#1

Oh, that reminds me! I still don’t understand why you guys think there’s a place called Purgatory. Please explain how this idea came up or did Jesus intend that too? :confused:

blessings,
Nicole


#2

Try this How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants

This does not mean I am assuming you are Protestant, it’s just the title of the paper. :slight_smile:

Anyway, the short answer is that there are two related but distinct things here: sin and the consequences of sin. If I break my friend’s window in anger (sin), repent and ask forgiveness and get it, all fine and dandy–but it does not fix the window (consequence of sin). Forgiveness obliterates the sin, and purgatory repairs the damage from the consequences. Just as death came into the world because of sin, even though we are forgiven by Christ, we still die bodily because it is a consequence of sin.

Scott


#3

Paris, you seem like a pretty bright kid. And your questions are pretty basic. Have you looked at the home page of Catholic Answers (not the Forums, but the main web site)? (www.catholic.com) They have great tracts on these questions. You should also get a copy of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *(the “expensive” edition is about $15, there is a cheaper version for around $8). But you can access it on line (and search it) here:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm


#4

Paris,
here are 4 scriptural concepts of what Purgatory is:

Rev 21:27, Nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. Those who still have an attachment to sin must somehow have this removed from them. The doctrine of Purgatory doesn’t necissarily say how this happens, just that there must be some kind of process from unclean to clean. Even if a drop of dirt remains in white, it is not clean. We must be washed perfectly white and spotless.

Heb 12:23 The spirits of the just made perfect.
If someone is just, they are justified which means they are worthy of heaven.
If someone who is already just but yet must be made perfect, then there must be some kind of process or purging that makes this happen.

1Cor 3:13-15 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
The person is saved but through fire. This fire, Catholics believe, is the purging fires of Purgatory.

2Sam 12:13-14

*Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. *

But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

David is forgiven of his sin yet there is a temporal price (not eternal price) to pay for his sin.

Also, other supporting texts are Matt 5:48* (Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.)
2Macc 12:45-46 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. *

So while the bible never uses the word Purgatory, there is some kind of purging that occurs to those who still have an attachment to sin, but are yet saved.

Some of these elements for purgation can also happen while in the body on earth.

(cont’d)


#5

CCC on Purgatory:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]

There is really nothing unscriptural about Purgatory at all. The word may not be in the bible (but then again neither is the word Trinity or Incarnation), but the belief is there.


#6

Another scriptural verse used to defend the doctrine of Purgatory is Mt 5:25-26. Here the Lord says that we should be reconciled with our adversaries so that we are not put in jail, from where we will not be released until we have paid the last penny. He is clearly talking about judgement, so why is there the implication that one might get out, if there is only the eternal punishment of Hell.

It’s also regularly noted that while the word Purgatory is not in the Bible, neither are such words as Trinity, Incarnation, etc…

Finally, it is interesting to note that there is not one, but two words used by Christ (granted we only have the Greek translations) with reference to an afterlife outside of immediate salvation- gehenna and hades.


#7

OK this is not exactly scriptural but,

I like to think of Purgatory as

The Cash Wash to Heaven !

With Christ’s Blood as the Shampoo.

For Goodness Sakes, Wash-up before you come to dinner !

[Revelation 19:9](“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 19:9&version=31”)
Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’

Revelation 7:14-15
*** “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."***


God Bless


Todd


#8

Paris, you ask questions that would require an entire book to answer …but try this,
"The word “Purgatory” is not mentioned in the bible but the word “Trinity” is not mentioned in the bible either yet protestants and catholics alike believe in it. It is not important that the word “Purgatory” be mentioned in the bible.

Matt 5:25-26 says, " Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON.5:26. Amen I say to thee, THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING." Notice: This is part of the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is telling the disciples first about the quality of souls of the just (the Beatitudes) and then goes on to describe the souls of the lost (v21-22)but then he speaks about the souls in “Prison”. In context, He cannot be speaking about a physical prison where inmates stay, rather, it is Purgatory. Here’s why: The Greek word here for “Prison” is “Phulake” or “Phulaken” (Strong’s #5438).Notice too that the next verse says, “…THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING.” So here you see the souls do eventually get out. Ok, now, go to 1 Pet 3:18-19 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:” This “Prison” is the same as the one in Matt 5 because the same Greek word “Phulaken” is used. Notice: Verse 18 speaks about Christ dead and then what? He goes and speaks to the souls in “Prison”! Catholic teaching doesn’t include where Purgatory exists only that it does exist. Most verses tend to show it in the upper parts of Hell. Some think it is like an ante-chamber of heaven. It’s OK either way. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine are two who believed it is in hell. This isn’t strange because we believe the Limbo of the Fathers (The Bosom of Abraham) was in hell (see Luke 16:22). When Jesus descended into hell, he took those souls (like Abraham,Moses, etc)out of the Bosom of Abraham and into heaven because this was when Christ opened the gates of heaven.

1 Cor 3:11-15 says, " For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. 3:12. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 3:13. Every man’s work shall be manifest FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD shall declare it, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 3:14. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 315. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHAL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE." Notice: It’s not just the works (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) that go through the fire but it says “HE” shall be saved by fire. Why? Because your works are attached to you so when they go through the fire so do you.


#9

Forgiveness obliterates the sin, and purgatory repairs the damage from the consequences

And what is the consequence of sin?


#10

I hope this helps a little. They have talked alot about the internet and porn addiction. Okay,say, the porn addict is sorry asks God for forgiveness and is forgiven, the images remain,the nail driven in his,soul by this sin leaves a hole. In heaven we are perfect, we couldn’t take heaven and being with God with the hole that has been left by the nail,which is sin.Purgatory cleans you of all wounds of sin.I am not a theologian, but I hope this helps.God Bless


#11

**

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I hope this helps a little. They have talked alot about the internet and porn addiction. Okay,say, the porn addict is sorry asks God for forgiveness and is forgiven, the images remain,the nail driven in his,soul by this sin leaves a hole…
[/quote]

Thanks Lisa for your input. I was reading Romans 6:23 and
St.Paul said
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul said that the consequence for sin is DEATH (thanatos in greek) which means seperation. This makes sense because when we physically die our souls depart from our bodies (Separation takes place). However, scripture also mentions a second death.

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the **second death. **

It seems that scripture mentions a second type of seperation or death, which appears to be a spiritual death (Hell ?)

I also noticed that St. Peter said this:

1 Peter 2:24 "He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.

Doesn’t St. Peter say that Jesus took the consequences of my sin (death Rom 6:23) and because of Jesus’ “stripes” on the cross, I am healed. Otherwise, why did Jesus have to die on the cross if I have to pay for the consequences of my sin in purgatory? Did Jesus’s crucifixion cover all of my sin or only part of it?

God Bless
Your brother in Christ Josiah
**


#12

Hmmmmmmmm…very interesting…see, I’m almost done reading the New Testament for the second time…hopefully, my third time around I will try to focus more on what the scriptures mean. Then the 4th, who knows, the 5th, I should start to understand better! :slight_smile:

You know, before I even thought about Purgatory, I always told myself, since we have to be 100% pure of sin in order to get to Heaven, we just can’t die on earth and then be brought into Heaven when we’re still guilty of sin even if it’s confessed! I don’t think God will say, “Come join me and the others eventhough you still are guilty of sin…” I remember a part in the Bible (again, I’m in college, don’t have it with me! :frowning: ) where it says something like you can’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven without having sins removed, something like that. So yes, the fact of Purgatory does make sense. I will try to discern more on the scriptures you guys gave me! :smiley: Thanks again!

blessings,
Nicole


#13

Paris,

Rev 21:25-27 Its gates will never be shut by day–and there will be no night there. People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

If we have any attachment to sin at all, we are unclean. We must have every attachment to sin removed from us before we can enter Heaven.

In purgatory, we don’t know about how long people are there.
It may be an instantaneous thing. We don’t know definitively.

But if you accept that you have to have every part of sin removed from you before you can see God, than you have really embraced 99% of what purgatory is and is all about.


#14

Doesn’t St. Peter say that Jesus took the consequences of my sin (death Rom 6:23) and because of Jesus’ “stripes” on the cross, I am healed. Otherwise, why did Jesus have to die on the cross if I have to pay for the consequences of my sin in purgatory? Did Jesus’s crucifixion cover all of my sin or only part of it?

Jesus’s actions allowed us to be healed. He accepted our sins but that doesn’t mean that there are not consequences to the sins and our ongoing sinfulness. That’s part of our fallen nature (due to sin). This part of the flaw of the “Once saved, always saved” doctrine.

John
Cincinnati


#15

[quote=Paris Blues]Hmmmmmmmm…very interesting…see, I’m almost done reading the New Testament for the second time…hopefully, my third time around I will try to focus more on what the scriptures mean. Then the 4th, who knows, the 5th, I should start to understand better! :slight_smile:

You know, before I even thought about Purgatory, I always told myself, since we have to be 100% pure of sin in order to get to Heaven, we just can’t die on earth and then be brought into Heaven when we’re still guilty of sin even if it’s confessed! I don’t think God will say, “Come join me and the others eventhough you still are guilty of sin…” I remember a part in the Bible (again, I’m in college, don’t have it with me! :frowning: ) where it says something like you can’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven without having sins removed, something like that. So yes, the fact of Purgatory does make sense. I will try to discern more on the scriptures you guys gave me! :smiley: Thanks again!

blessings,
Nicole
[/quote]

Here is a great source - biblechristiansociety.com - free tapes and booklets


#16

[quote=josiah]**

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]I hope this helps a little. They have talked alot about the internet and porn addiction. Okay,say, the porn addict is sorry asks God for forgiveness and is forgiven, the images remain,the nail driven in his,soul by this sin leaves a hole…
[/quote]

**

Thanks Lisa for your input. I was reading Romans 6:23 and
St.Paul said
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul said that the consequence for sin is DEATH (thanatos in greek) which means seperation. This makes sense because when we physically die our souls depart from our bodies (Separation takes place). However, scripture also mentions a second death.

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the **second death. **

It seems that scripture mentions a second type of seperation or death, which appears to be a spiritual death (Hell ?)

I also noticed that St. Peter said this:

1 Peter 2:24 "He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.

Doesn’t St. Peter say that Jesus took the consequences of my sin (death Rom 6:23) and because of Jesus’ “stripes” on the cross, I am healed. Otherwise, why did Jesus have to die on the cross if I have to pay for the consequences of my sin in purgatory? Did Jesus’s crucifixion cover all of my sin or only part of it?

God Bless
Your brother in Christ Josiah

[/quote]


#17

Purgatory is not,and I repeat Not the second death.Although I see what you are trying to argue that same argument is like saying,I killed someone asked for forgiveness and therefore I shouldn’t go to jail.For the person that killed someone,did not Jesus take all the sin upon himself?Does the fact that the person who suffered these consequences for mean he was not fully forgiven?Of course not.GodBless,Lisa


#18

I’m not suggesting that Purgatory is the second death, but instead I’m asking what is the purpose of it, if Jesus bore all of the consequences for my sin? I just don’t see the point of purgatory. That’s all.

Josiah


#19

OK this is not exactly scriptural but,

Todd buddy…you’re wrong…purgatory, like the trinity, & the incarnation is implicitly stated in the Bible. Suggest you see this tract on this home page. You like it for the right reasons though…
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Blessed Christmas to you!
:heart: :bible1:


#20

[quote=josiah]I’m not suggesting that Purgatory is the second death, but instead I’m asking what is the purpose of it, if Jesus bore all of the consequences for my sin? I just don’t see the point of purgatory. That’s all.

Josiah
[/quote]


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