Purgatory writings during Jesus time and possible advic


#1

Are there any writings on purgatory when Jesus was alive? I am having a Facebook argument. If you have time and have any advice here it is:


ORIGINAL POST ME

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

  • C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages


#2

REED

I think that there are many arguments that are caused by the translation of words, but even more so the meaning of words are torn apart so much that the message itself is sometimes lost. Case in point, when Jesus said to the man on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. So many “scholars” have torn that word apart as the Greek meaning for that is different entirely than heaven and therefore, Jesus would not be seeing him in heaven but in a place between heaven and Earth. I think purgatory is something invented by the church. I can’t say this without being insulting, but to be completely honest, I think it was invented to get money from people for the Church. Back in the day the church would collect money four the souls of the dead so that the living could pay their way to heaven. If that isn’t the best scam in the history of mankind I don’t know what is.


ME

t Back in the middle ages the church did use it as a way to get money. And im sure those priests and bishops have a special torture chamber in hell. but If it could be proven that purgatory was believed prior to the middle ages then this argument would be invalid would it not?


REED

No, like i said the original idea comes from translation or misinterpretation, then it was expanded upon. It wouldn’t change anything in my opinio


ME

Even if the early church fathers believed in purgatory? If it could be proven that christians (even jthe jews of jesus time for a matter of fact) up to the reformation believed in purgatory, you still think that it was misinterpretation? I presume when you say misinterpretation, you mean sacred scripture. If i give you the lines of sacred scripture that are believed to be about purgatory could you please interpret them correctly?


REED

You have to remember that Jews stole most of their stories from other cultures and adapted them for their own purposes. Just because there has always been a history of praying for the dead’s passage to their final resting place doesn’t mean their is some stopping off point. How far back will you go is my question?


ME

Earliest i have so far is 150 AD - 200 AD


REED

Oh it’s long before that. The Jews paid for their dead as well. Also a scam.


Me

So the scam continued until Martian Luther was able to catch it? When did the scam begin? It seems from what your saying, it always existed till the reformation


REED

Yea then Luther was like, this is crazy, or something like that,

Now if you want to go Old Testament, which was written by Jews, who by the way also never talked about Hell, which until the new testament never existed, they believed in Sheol, which was simply the abode of the dead. This was a place where both good and bad people go after death, or the after life, or whatever you want to call it. Heaven was looked upon completely differently in the early books than it was in later ones. In fact the Jews preached about a God that would punish us here in Earth if we sinned against God. Curses or blessings if you will, and the here and now was where we need but worry, so ironically the Christians rewrote this in the New Testament explaining that we needed to worry about more than just our Earthly form that all eternity was at risk if we didn’t behave well on Earth, and therefore “Hell” was created. Now what is hell? Some people will say that all Christians must enter hell before they are judged and then may have access to heaven. So if that is true then I suppose Hell in a sense is Purgatory. Where we would be purged of all sins before going to heaven. That’s what was written of Jesus. He went to hell first and then to heaven. Now then there are some that say we don’t have to go to Hell because Jesus went for us. So then that would mean no Purgatory, right? But then again. Hell was created by later Christians and is never discussed in the old testament and even in the New testament it is referred to as many other terms that are Greek traditions of afterlife. So the real question is what is heaven and do we go straight there? I don’t believe in purgatory because I find no evidence of its existence from the bible. In fact why would God require time to judge us? Why would it take time to purge our sins? Why would others praying for us, our souls, make us more worthy to go to heaven? Purgatory makes no sense to me. I think heaven is confusing enough for our simple minds to comprehend, why are people making up things like purgatory and Limbo to make it even more so?


#3

:confused:

First of all, there weren't any writings about Christianity at all when Jesus was alive, because He hadn't died yet.

Second, what is the argument? You've just posted a long passage from C.S. Lewis, who believed in Purgatory.


#4

would say that is what most protestants think. That’s how I have viewed it my entire life. I don’t think there is a line. I think its instantaneous. I also don’t think it’s a place. I think its more spiritual. No one knows of course that’s still here on Earth. I certainly do not believe there are streets of gold.


ME

earlier I asked you if I could give you bible verses that hint towards purgatory. I missed that you said “go for it”. Please note that the word “purgatory” is not in the bible because it is Latin and the bible was mainly written in Greek and Hebrew. Also just because the word “purgatory” is not in the bible does NOT mean it is not true. Other words that are not in the bible include Trinity and Incarnation but all Christians have recognized this truth. Here they are:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

why did Christ not mention “the great spam” of the jews and the early Christians? He never says anything against purgatory. The fact that a single man finally figures things out on his own after 1500 years of church history and no one else questioned it leaves me wondering. But I think we could make a martin Luther version of call me maybe. “Hey this is crazy… Purgatory doesn’t look right…”.

for your question “what is hell?”. Heaven is loving God to the fullest to where we become one with God. Hell is the opposite. Hell is the complete rejection of God. The souls in hell are not begging for mercy but cursing everything, whether it be God or the devil or the soul next to them. But what if we are going to heaven but still have sin on our soul? Few of us die sinless. Revelations 21:27 says:
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

“And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life”.

So do we go to hell? But what if, as the catechism of the Catholic Church says,

"1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. "

Those in purgatory are already judged to go to heaven because they are in union with the body of Christ, but they still have “a little mud on their shoes”. As Christ says: "

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

God will burn away the dirt until nothing is left but gold. We will suffer because of lose but it will be for the best as Christ says,

"9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. "

Purgatory is also used by God for us to make up the punishment for our sins. Yes there is punishment for our sins.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Samuel+11&version=NIV

In the story of bethsheba and David, they both are punished for their sins. If we can not pay our punishment on earth (usually through guilt) them we must “pay every last penny” in purgatory. God is not a big meany, just fair and just. We get what we deserve.

did jesus go to hell or purgatory? Could the prison be referred to as purgatory? Those in hell will suffer eternal damnation and there is NO hope for them. What if when jesus died he opened the gates to heaven for us?

Lets try to simplify the three places.

Heaven: complete peace with God

Purgatory: those going to heaven but still have spiritual mud on their soul

Hell: complete rejection of God, as C.S. Lewis said, “hell is a place locked from the inside”

Purgatory is after your judgment and is only necessary if you are already going to heaven. Read what I wrote to sturm for more info on purgatory.

again.

Heaven, hell, and purgatory are the same in the since that they:

  1. are not made of matter.
  2. do not have time. (something cannot be instantaneous without time)

#5

When you see old catholic paintings of hell, heaven, and purgatory, these are just artist interpretations of what it would be like. Words or paintings cannot descried these three places. Hell and purgatory is usually painted with fire. Fire REPRESENTS suffering. Hell is eternal suffering. Purgatory is temporary suffering.


REED

Matt I read absolutely everything you typed and I see no where does it talk about purgatory. I know what the New Testament says about Hell, I’m saying it was invented for the New Testament. I’m not getting your argument here.

Oh and I never meant the word itself. I understand the language issue. I’m saying the passages you typed do not describe a place like purgatory

And the incarnation is basically spelled out for us as he is the son of God, and he looks up and sees the holy ghost descending as a dove, and of course he was speaking to God so there are the three. Who cares when they came up with the name Triune or trinity, that is really irrelevant. But both of those two things are based off the Gospels. Tell me in Mathew Mark Luke or John where Christ talks about purgatory at all. He doesn’t refute it, because he didn’t need to, because it doesn’t exist.That’s like saying why didn’t Christ refute the Muslims or the Mormons? They didn’t exist yet. So what is there to say about them. No where in the bible does it speak of a place between Earth and Heaven, except hell in the new testament. And I ask you again, why would God need our prayers to decide whether or not someone is fit to enter heaven. By the way I do not have much faith in the book of revelations.


ME

Matthew Hunt Reed Sturm You were saying that the idea of purgatory existed among Jews during Jesus’s time unlike Mormonism or Islam. Did you read the verses on the website I gave you? Here they are:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

God has alredy judged whether the person is going to heaven or not when someone is purged of sins. Our prayers do not determine there afterlife. They merely ease the suffering. Many men have gone insane over revelations, and I believe Luther himself was considering the removal of it, but when you understand it’s true purpose it’s not that bad. Lets use common sense. What happens when you put oil in water? It polutes the water. What happens when sin enters heaven? God will NOT allow sin in heaven. He must purge our souls.


Reed

agree that there is no sin in heaven I just don’t think there is a place to purge us. I don’t think God needs a place to purge us. That said since there is no sin in heaven, we shouldn’t have memories of Earth, and therefore we shouldn’t recognize one another, or love any person more than the next. Isn’t that something interesting to think about? Sorry to change the subject.

Believe it if you want Matt, it shouldn’t make any difference in the whole scheme of things. I haven’t seen anything yet to make me believe so. Peoples opinions based on their perception of words is not enough for me. And not sure if you typed that wrong, but I said it did NOT exist not it did exist.

And yes I read these, and that is someone’s interpretation of what Jesus is saying. I don’t see it that way.


Me
,


#6

Me

At least we agree there is no sin in heaven. But very few of us die without at least some sin on our soul. So where do we go? Why would we forget our existence on earth? Our soul contains our personality. Only the bad part of our personality is purged away. I don't know why we wouldn't recognize each other. Some of us with have more "gold" than others and will have greater glory from God. What if God loved some people in heaven more than others? You or I have not done near as much as St. Paul. This might sound like a good way to become jealous. But there is no jealousy in heaven so what if we gave God more glory because it showed Gods justice. What if we gave God even more glory when people are sentenced to hell, because God is fair and just. Isn't that interesting to think about? When the rich man who has stole from the poor all his life has finally been brought to justice for his sins and suffers eternal damnation we give God glory because he is good and just giving us what we deserve. Some people deserve more love, such as the early Christians who were fed to the lions. Those articles were the Catholic Churches interpretation of the bible. Which has had the bible for 2000 years. It has been read by some of the greatest minds of the church, St. Tomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, GK Chesterton, JRR Tolkien etc. Even CS Lewis who was not even Catholic agreed with this interpretation. I respect your interpretation, Sturm, but your a Science teacher like I am a student. We are not theologians. We have not studied this our whole life. So I ask you do you have a great theologian from around the time of Jesus who disagrees with purgatory? I do have to disagree with it not being important to the grand scheme of things. If purgatory could be disproven, most Catholic doctrines would be questioned. If there is no purgatory, then is there a difference in sin (venial and mortal)? Catholics believe that if you commit mortal sin you break the life of God within you and you risk eternal damnation, where as venial sin can be purged in purgatory. If sin is all the same this is where many claim that the devil may have us tricked. If you were the devil would you not want to convince the world there is no such thing as sin or sin is all the same? Another thing questioned would be rather souls on heaven hell and purgatory can wonder the earth. There is plenty of proof in the bible. Jesus cures men of demons, the devil tempts jesus, the apostles meet their ancestors on the hill, etc. Can the souls in heaven help us? What about our guardian angles? One of our prayers says "cast into hell satan and all the evil spirits who prowl among the earth seeking the ruin of souls." Are we not tempted by demons? All this would be questioned. By all means if its wrong its wrong and I am willing to change my mind. Purgatory is important to me in the grand scheme of things. But you most likely wont go to hell whether you do or do not believe in it.

Like I said before Hell and purgatory are a state of the soul not a place for the soul.

Okay let me try again. According to you the idea of purgatory did NOT exist among the Jews during Jesus's time. But I have early church fathers writings that were the first decedents of the apostles that believed in purgatory.


REED
Earth is full of sin every memory of Earth is sinful, so there can be no memories of Earth in heaven. just a thought no one knows, and if only our pure soul goes to heaven and our thoughts here on Earth do not move along, then there is no need to be purified. Even if there was this would not require time or a place. God could do this instantaneously and our souls would just reunite with his.

Those people you mentioned were not around during Christ.

As for sin being the same, it is. It says so in the bible that God sees all sins as the same. Greater Glory in God's eyes will not asure us a higher position in heaven. I truly believe that all will be equal in heaven except for God of course. Our solves were a gift from him and they will return to him, I do not think there will be jealousy either, but that's because there will be nothing to be jealous about. Because we will have no memories good or bad of Earth.

By the way CS Lewis was not a theologian, he was a writer of fantasy and he was a christian in the end. Did you know he was an atheist for a while. He was very confused about everything and angry with the church for some time. He certainly studied it some, but I certainly wouldn't look to him as a leader in this area

could find hundreds of well read and scholarly protestant theologians that would read those same texts and disagree with them. So that is not a valid argument.


Me

Martin Luther was a catholic priest and began believing in the existence of Purgatory. From The 95 Theses:

  1. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
  2. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
  3. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
  4. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
  5. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
  6. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia (confessional letters).

He may have disagreed with the Church about the nature of what can or can't happen in Purgatory, and he may have differed about the "why" of certain things that happen to those in Purgatory; however, it seems from the above that Luther accepted the existence of Purgatory.


end


#7

=2015huntmj;10592141]Are there any writings on purgatory when Jesus was alive? I am having a Facebook argument. If you have time and have any advice here it is:

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become

2nd. Mac. 12: 39-44 "And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them"

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

EACH of these deals with the believe in Purgatory. AMEN!


#8

[quote="PJM, post:7, topic:322048"]
2nd. Mac. 12: 39-44 "And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them"

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

EACH of these deals with the believe in Purgatory. AMEN!

[/quote]

Thanks, but I need proof outside the bible. He thinks this is just "bad interperation" If I could prove that the idea existed during Jesus's time that would be great!


#9

[quote="2015huntmj, post:8, topic:322048"]
Thanks, but I need proof outside the bible. He thinks this is just "bad interperation" If I could prove that the idea existed during Jesus's time that would be great!

[/quote]

You must understand that Purgatory even though it has existed since the time of Jesus was not a particular teaching that the apostles took up and gave to the Church. It still was not yet properly understood and I believe I have a notion why. Purgatory actually if it was on the mouthpieces of the first apostles would not have converted the masses in quick numbers. The problem with Purgatory is not with its teaching (by which this Orthodox Christian believes as true) but with its easy handling God gives to those who hardly do anything with His Graces and Mercy. The trouble as I see it in the Early Church is you need to be a bit tougher on the masses and if Purgatory was taught right off the bat it may have been a wee bit disastrous because people would have thought "well they have this teaching on Purgatory. We can wait. Don't need to rush into salvation. We can relax a bit." Purgatory probably would not have been a good idea right off the bat because you might get a lot of couch potatoes or just lazy Christians thinking that oh well we can be saved through Purgatory. It wasn't the right time to developed it or to bring it out in the open. Purgatory teaches that God will extend His Mercy in the after life. In fact I teach that Purgatory exists in this life and only extends into the other life if you still need it. Purgatory is only a state of being. You are always fluctuating in it. Since Purgatory is in this life and if you have been lazy in your Christian vocation it extends to the next life. God only extends what is already there at death.

Since many people today are couch potatoes in their duty as Christians you can imagine what it would have been like if this teaching as it is today would have impacted the Early Church. Purgatory on its own is really not that great to motivate Christians now to be in a relationship with Jesus Christ. To be in a relationship with Jesus Christ is more important. Once that is established your own Purgatory will be taken care of. However if you do not establish a relationship with Jesus in this life or if you were careless in your duties and still need time then God will extend your Purgatory in the afterlife for it to be taken care of. This is why we need it. That is why we pray for the departed. In case they still need Grace. We can help them or help God to send forth His Grace to eliminate whatever Purgatory is still applied to them. However this can be and it is good practice to pray for the Holy Souls it is an even more pious act to pray for the souls in Purgatory who have not died yet. Since I believe Purgatory starts in this life why wait until people die. We can still pray for them while they are still living for God to send forth His Graces to these same people.

If you need proof from an existing source look no further than the Diary of St. Maria Faustina. She saw a vision of the suffering souls who after death all said in one voice they all long for God when she asked them what was their greatest desire. There are many references of Purgatory in her Diary. The greatest mention of Purgatory is the Feast of the Divine Mercy which was celebrated today all over the Catholic world. On this day Jesus promised complete forgiveness and any temporary punishment would all be eliminated if you receive Him in Holy Communion. Now Jesus is referring to Purgatory here and it is interesting He is pointing to a Purgatory that we have now within us. The Feast day is also an opportunity for the lazy ones to get off their couches and think about what they are missing. I hope this helps. Purgatory was more developed in Rome when she began to understood more the Justice and Mercy of God. Her saints then developed a more refined teaching which helps us to understand that God can still save us through Purgatory after death by continuing this state at death. It just makes sense because I sense in those days they were still dealing with a lot of "couch potatoes".


#10

[quote="2015huntmj, post:8, topic:322048"]
Thanks, but I need proof outside the bible. He thinks this is just "bad interperation" If I could prove that the idea existed during Jesus's time that would be great!

[/quote]

If your friend is a Protestant, then he believes 2 Maccabees, which PJM cited, is outside the Bible. Martin Luther debated the passage with Johann Eck, and that's when Luther rejected 2 Maccabees as far as we can tell. He conceded that it taught Purgatory along with the offerings we can make for those souls still attached to sin. He just rejected it as Scripture.


#11

=2015huntmj;10592369]Thanks, but I need proof outside the bible. He thinks this is just "bad interperation" If I could prove that the idea existed during Jesus's time that would be great!

divineblessings.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/do-jews-believe-in-purgatory/

Do Jews believe in Purgatory?

In essence, yes, though they do not call it purgatory. Jews do believe in a purification (a purgation) which takes place after death. When a Jewish person’s loved one dies, it is customary to pray on his behalf for eleven months using a prayer known as the mourner’s Qaddish (derived from the Hebrew word meaning “holy”). This prayer is used to ask God to hasten the purification of the loved one’s soul. The Qaddish is prayed for only eleven months because it is thought to be an insult to imply that the loved one’s sins were so severe that he would require a full year of purification.

The practice of praying for the dead has been part of the Jewish faith since before Christ. Remember that 2 Maccabees 12:39-46, on which Catholics base themselves for one of the main evidence for the observance of this practice, show that, a century and a half before Christ, prayer for the dead was taken for granted. Unlike Protestantism, Catholicism has preserved this authentic element of Judeo-Christian faith


#12

This article from my blog may help.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory


#13

Perhaps because Spam had not yet been invented? :rolleyes:


#14

This entry in the Jewish Encyclopedia 1905 on the history of the Kaddish is very interesting. It certainly shows that purgatory (although not called that) was part of Jewish religious tradition/teaching.
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9110-kaddish


#15

[quote="2015huntmj, post:2, topic:322048"]
REED

I think that there are many arguments that are caused by the translation of words, but even more so the meaning of words are torn apart so much that the message itself is sometimes lost. Case in point, when Jesus said to the man on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. So many "scholars" have torn that word apart as the Greek meaning for that is different entirely than heaven and therefore, Jesus would not be seeing him in heaven but in a place between heaven and Earth. I think purgatory is something invented by the church.

[/quote]

Odd, that sounds like me....
forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=8400409&postcount=4

Considering that protestants try to use this passage to disprove purgatory; I can see why he might be wary. But, it goes way beyond just the word; it goes to the heart of the first creation with Adam.
Eden is a place, even now, but it isn't a paradise; for, in order for a place to be a paradise, it has to be walled in. There was a garden in Eden.

A serious study is too much to do right now; But it's important to understand that "cherubim" are the throne angels who carry God's chariot. The chariot itself, as described by Ezekiel, etc. in their visions rides upon the cherubim down on earth, with the seraphim on top of them -- stretching their wings out over the seat (throne, also possibly an angel); and human hands show forth from the angels to carry the seat.

Just so:
The ark of the covenant, carried by Moses (the so called Mercy seat), is a chariot to be carried by human hands with two angels, one at the head -- and one at the foot.

If you read the link to my old post, it's important to add a note about this rich man's garden; Inside the tomb where Jesus lay, we are told that one angel stood at the head, and one at the foot; Identical to the ark.

The thing that made Eden a paradisio is the very fact that the four cherubim walled it in on all sides. In the imagery of Isaiah, he finds himself inside this place surrounded by the Cherubim (under the throne of God) with an altar in the middle, which has fire: Isaiah 6:2 - 6:7; The very last line reads, in the KJV if your friend is non-Catholic:
Isaia 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Again, it is the chariot of God who rides UPON the cherubim; which made Eden a paradisio -- and it is that SAME chariot which makes the place of Jesus' tomb a paradise. When Adam was kicked out of Paradise, God Gave the cherubim FIRE, to block the way BACK INTO IT.

1Cori 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cori 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cori 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

To re-enter the place under the chariot, which walls in the temple of God (for it is a temple, with an altar) -- one has to pass through the Cherubim who guard it with fire.

It is possible that the "good" thief could be considered a martyr, baptized in blood, but even then -- we hear of suffering in the afterlife until the last day had come:

Revel 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

For the theif, although not slain because of Jesus, did bear testimony to him; and is in that way a "witness" (martyr).

Revel 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And here, you see they are suffering still, for until justice is done they feel the injustice still with them.

In any event, I'm sure there are others here who can find the scriptures to fill in many of the blanks I have left; but the argument will only become stronger -- for it is the Angels who meet us and take us to paradise.

May the Choirs of Angels, come to greet you, on your way to paradise. (or perhaps the Bosom of Abraham in times past.)


#16

I find some of the OT writings as presenting the concept of purgatory - that is, this need to be made perfect/pure -- to be purged or refined from all that is not perfect.

I think the following passages can have a double application -- both to God's kingdom of Israel and to God's kingdom in heaven.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Isaiah 1:25 I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy.

Zechariah13:9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested.

Proverbs 25:4 Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel;


#17

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