Purgatory.


#1

Doee anyone know any good sources with information to defend this doctrine?


#2

[quote="ErricFiggy, post:1, topic:283732"]
Doee anyone know any good sources with information to defend this doctrine?

[/quote]

This should be very comprehensive.......catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html


#3

How about the bible? Is there any scriptures that back up this doctrine? I find when talking with other faiths I have to use the bible to back up what I am saying.


#4

Purgatory has always been there in the bible - it also part of Jewish faith - its the word “purgatory” thats new that the church started using to describe it.Others claim Catholics invented it but really we just came up with a name for it


#5

Every Christian believes in purgatory, even if many deny that belief. Here's how to demonstrate this.

Q: Are you now perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be NO)

Q: When you die, will God make you perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be YES)

Answering NO and YES means you believe in purgatory.


#6

[quote="Riddle_me_this, post:3, topic:283732"]
How about the bible? Is there any scriptures that back up this doctrine? I find when talking with other faiths I have to use the bible to back up what I am saying.

[/quote]

Here is a link to quite a few Scripture verses that can be used to support the doctrine of Purgatory.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


#7

[quote="snarflemike, post:5, topic:283732"]
Every Christian believes in purgatory, even if many deny that belief. Here's how to demonstrate this.

Q: Are you now perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be NO)

Q: When you die, will God make you perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be YES)

Answering NO and YES means you believe in purgatory.

[/quote]

I like this.. however, many will complain that Catholics take things too far and expanded this idea father then the bible supports.. essentially inventing an entire place, between heaven and hell and a back door into heaven.

All of which isn't true...but I think this reasoning.. though powerful to a Catholic and demonstrates one of the basic concepts of Purgatory or "purification" it won't convince many.

But this is a good FIRST step in opening the door to point out the scriptural support for Purgatory.

verses like when Christ said one will not get out of prison 'til they have paid the last penny.
Well heaven isn't a prison and you can't get out of hell.

OR

When Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this life or the next. Well, in heaven there are no sins to be forgiven.. and in hell there is no chance for forgiveness.
So where is this 'next life' where some sins apparently CAN be forgiven?


#8

The usual reply is that Jesus' blood "automatically" purifies us for heaven. Once you buy into heresy, it matters not what is in the bible, or what is not. Your ego is the pope of your doctrine.


#9

Quoted from Dave Armstrong's Book A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:

1 Corinthians 15:29 If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

2 Maccabees 12:44 It is superfluous and vain to pray for the dead if the dead rise not again

St. Francis de Sales says:
[INDENT] "This passage properly understood evidently shows that it was the custom of the primitive Church to watch, pray, fast, for the souls of the departed. For, firstly, in the Scriptures to be baptized is often taken for afflictions and penances; as in Luke 12:50 . . . and in St. Mark 10:38-9 . . . -- in which places Our Lord calls pains and afflictions baptism [cf. Mt 3:11, 20:22-3, Lk 3:16].
This then is the sense of that Scripture: if the dead rise not again, what is the use of mortifying and afflicting oneself, of praying and fasting for the dead? And indeed this sentence of St. Paul resembles that of 2 Maccabees 12:44"
The "penance" interpretation is supported contextually by the next three verses, where the Apostle speaks of being in peril every hour, and dying every day. St. Paul certainly doesn't condemn the practice, whatever it is (his question being merely rhetorical). Given these facts, and the striking resemblance to 2 Maccabees 12:44, the traditional Catholic interpretation seems the most plausible.
In any event, Protestants are at almost a complete loss in coherently explaining this verse -- one of the most difficult in the New Testament for them to interpret.
[/INDENT]


#10

[quote="jschutzm, post:7, topic:283732"]
verses like when Christ said one will not get out of prison 'til they have paid the last penny.
Well heaven isn't a prison and you can't get out of hell.

[/quote]

The Greek word for "until" does not necessarily carry the implication of a change in state, as does its English equivalent. Cf. Matthew 1:24-25: "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus." This passage does not, contrary to common misinterpretation, negate the doctrine of St. Mary's perpetual virginity.

ButThe question arises: is the same Greek term employed in these two contexts?


#11

[quote="jschutzm, post:7, topic:283732"]
I like this.. however, many will complain that Catholics take things too far and expanded this idea father then the bible supports.. essentially inventing an entire place, between heaven and hell and a back door into heaven.

[/quote]

Sure, they'll come back, but now it's just about details, and it's easy to show in the Catechism that most of the objections they will have (it's a place, it requires time, it's a second chance for heaven) simply aren't taught by the Church.


#12

In case anyone is interested, Tim Staples of Catholic Answers debated James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries on the subject of Purgatory 1/28/10. Each person had equal time to present and defend their views.

Catholic Answers does not make this debate available, but Alpha and Omega Ministries does... for all of $1.50 for an mp3 download.

The description is as follows (in part)

"today we had Tim Staples on the program for 90 minutes to debate 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and the doctrine of purgatory. You are invited to take your Bible and listen carefully to our presentations and interaction, and ask yourself a simple question: who handled the text consistently, and who gave evidence of engaging in eisegesis? We took a number of calls in the last 20 minutes as well, with (mainly) good questions. I encourage Catholic Answers to make the debate mp3 available to their audience, I truly, truly do."

By Google searching parts of this quote, you'll probably find a way to order it. On the other hand, for those of you who would rather give Catholic Answers your $$, feel free to encourage Catholic Answers to likewise make this interaction available.

Regards, James


#13

[quote="jschutzm, post:7, topic:283732"]
I like this.. however, many will complain that Catholics take things too far and expanded this idea father then the bible supports.. essentially inventing an entire place, between heaven and hell and a back door into heaven.

All of which isn't true...but I think this reasoning.. though powerful to a Catholic and demonstrates one of the basic concepts of Purgatory or "purification" it won't convince many.

But this is a good FIRST step in opening the door to point out the scriptural support for Purgatory.

verses like when Christ said one will not get out of prison 'til they have paid the last penny.
Well heaven isn't a prison and you can't get out of hell.

OR

When Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this life or the next. Well, in heaven there are no sins to be forgiven.. and in hell there is no chance for forgiveness.
So where is this 'next life' where some sins apparently CAN be forgiven?

[/quote]

I know this sound bad but if I were a head of a church and I needed a way of coming up with some extra cash, inspiring fear that you have to pay for someone to get out of some place where they are stuck seems to be a pretty good way of doing so. Just saying.


#14

[quote="TertiumQuid, post:12, topic:283732"]
In case anyone is interested, Tim Staples of Catholic Answers debated James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries on the subject of Purgatory 1/28/10. Each person had equal time to present and defend their views.

Catholic Answers does not make this debate available, but Alpha and Omega Ministries does... for all of $1.50 for an mp3 download.

The description is as follows (in part)

"today we had Tim Staples on the program for 90 minutes to debate 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and the doctrine of purgatory. You are invited to take your Bible and listen carefully to our presentations and interaction, and ask yourself a simple question: who handled the text consistently, and who gave evidence of engaging in eisegesis? We took a number of calls in the last 20 minutes as well, with (mainly) good questions. I encourage Catholic Answers to make the debate mp3 available to their audience, I truly, truly do."

By Google searching parts of this quote, you'll probably find a way to order it. On the other hand, for those of you who would rather give Catholic Answers your $$, feel free to encourage Catholic Answers to likewise make this interaction available.

Regards, James

[/quote]

Why?


#15

[quote="snarflemike, post:5, topic:283732"]
Every Christian believes in purgatory, even if many deny that belief. Here's how to demonstrate this.

Q: Are you now perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be NO)

Q: When you die, will God make you perfect and without sin?

(the answer will be YES)

Answering NO and YES means you believe in purgatory.

[/quote]

Interesting...what is the actual definition of purgatory? I thought purgatory was a place where people got stuck between heaven and hell and the family had to pay to get them out?


#16

[quote="Riddle_me_this, post:3, topic:283732"]
How about the bible? Is there any scriptures that back up this doctrine? I find when talking with other faiths I have to use the bible to back up what I am saying.

[/quote]

Purgatory is a doctrine (dogma really) which is deeply rooted in the Bible.

Before any discussion of Purgatory can begin however, one has to have a definition of what purgatory is and what it is not. Two people will never have a meaningful discussion if each has a different idea of exactly what they are discussing. There is much misunderstanding of and misinformation about Purgatory floating around out there.

Purgatory is then best understood in the context of Biblical teaching on the strict requirements clearly laid out in the Bible for entry into heaven, mortal and venial sin, and how mortal and venial sin relates to the Jewish understanding of what it means to be part of a covenant - what covenants are, how covenants operate and what happens if you are faithful or unfaithful to the covenant. Mortal and venial sin relate directly to covenants, and covenants are a good way to approach the subject when speaking with non-Catholics who have a good understanding of covenant history in the Bible.

It really isn't a subject which lends itself to short posts or quoting verse, but I assure you that it is deeply rooted in the Bible. I wrote a blog post/paper a while back.

The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory

Or PDF if you prefer.

I hope it helps.

-Tim-


#17

[quote="Trebor135, post:10, topic:283732"]
The Greek word for "until" does not necessarily carry the implication of a change in state, as does its English equivalent. Cf. Matthew 1:24-25: "When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus." This passage does not, contrary to common misinterpretation, negate the doctrine of St. Mary's perpetual virginity.

ButThe question arises: is the same Greek term employed in these two contexts?

[/quote]

Yeah but isn't it pretty difficult to have perpetual virginity after giving birth to mulitple children from Joseph and not God? I mean I am not saying anything about the miracle of the virgin birth I just don't get the perpetual thing.


#18

[quote="Riddle_me_this, post:15, topic:283732"]
Interesting...what is the actual definition of purgatory? I thought purgatory was a place where people got stuck between heaven and hell and the family had to pay to get them out?

[/quote]

Wow. Does it have to be cash or are credit cards OK? :)

From the Catechism:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect...


#19

[quote="Riddle_me_this, post:17, topic:283732"]
Yeah but isn't it pretty difficult to have perpetual virginity after giving birth to mulitple children from Joseph and not God? I mean I am not saying anything about the miracle of the virgin birth I just don't get the perpetual thing.

[/quote]

Don't want to hijack this thread, but you could start by asking yourself when it is permissible in the bible for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers?


#20

Thank you all for your responses! This helps a lot and because of you all i now have some really good sources to draw upon :) you guys all helped a bunch, thank you :D


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