Purgatory

Mt5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into Prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, Till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, **as thou art in the way give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into Prison. 59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

QUOTE=blanchardman;14489609] Mt 5:25 & Lk 12:58 This “Prison” would have been “sheol”. Jesus paid the price for all that were there and set them free.

Did Jesus also set free those souls in Sheol who were in the chamber of torment?

What would be the point of teaching something that wouldn’t apply to most if not all those to whom he was speaking. Most of them would still be alive after Christ ascended and took the just souls in Abraham’s Bosom in Sheol to heaven. Those who died before Christ would have been judged otherwise they would not be in Abraham’s Bosom where one is comforted. Nor would souls not yet judged be in torment in Sheol.

[Lk16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but **now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.]

[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.]

Ok let’s assume it is at the end of time, works are still tried and one may suffer loss [1Cor3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, **he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.]

Saved as by fire indicates some pain will be involved. If one is purified at the end of time from works of wood, hay and stubble that’s still a state of purification=purgatory not heaven or hell. No matter when it takes place it is still a temporary state before entering heaven.
The “day” is the day of judgment at the end of time and the “day” at the death of each person is the end of time for them. [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:]

If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time? How could one be raised in a glorified body if they still needed purified of dead works?**

Good Job.
Good quotes on Purgatroy.

1 Peter 3:18-19
“For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it **he also went to preach to the spirits in prison … ” ** NAB
Matthew 5:25-26

     The same Greek word, # 5438, phulake, is used in          each of the two reference above and translated as prison.   [In some          Apostle Creed translations the word is  (mis)translated as Hell.  Hades          would be a better translation.]

jhargus: You cite Mt5:25 & Luke 12:58 as Jesus teaching purgatory yet question the idea that those who suffered there do not get out. Then you cite Luke16:20-25 I guess to prove your point.
JohnR77’s Greek lesson shows that Jesus spoke of sheol. He said they would get out when the debt is paid in full. Jesus paid the debt in full.
What was the sin of the “rich man”? Was it a “mortal” sin?

1 Cor3:12-15 The " Day" is the FINAL judgment of all mankind.
Verse 15 is NOT purgatory.
Don’t take my word on this. Go to the USCCB web page and check out the footnotes on 1Cor 3.

that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into Prison. 59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

QUOTE=blanchardman;14489609] Mt 5:25 & Lk 12:58 This “Prison” would have been “sheol”. Jesus paid the price for all that were there and set them free.

Did Jesus also set free those souls in Sheol who were in the chamber of torment?

What would be the point of teaching something that wouldn’t apply to most if not all those to whom he was speaking. Most of them would still be alive after Christ ascended and took the just souls in Abraham’s Bosom in Sheol to heaven. Those who died before Christ would have been judged otherwise they would not be in Abraham’s Bosom where one is comforted. Nor would souls not yet judged be in torment in Sheol.

[Lk16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but **now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.]

[1Cor3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.]

Ok let’s assume it is at the end of time, works are still tried and one may suffer loss [1Cor3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, **he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.]

Saved as by fire indicates some pain will be involved. If one is purified at the end of time from works of wood, hay and stubble that’s still a state of purification=purgatory not heaven or hell. No matter when it takes place it is still a temporary state before entering heaven.
The “day” is the day of judgment at the end of time and the “day” at the death of each person is the end of time for them. [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:]

If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time? How could one be raised in a glorified body if they still needed purified of dead works?**

The souls IS judged at death. There are 2 judgements. At death there is the Particular Judgement and at the end of time there is the Final Judgement.

When we die our destination is fixed, meaning we are immediately saved if we die in a state of grace (purgatory first and then Heaven or straight to Heaven) or if we die in a state of mortal sin we immediately go to Hell.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

I think you misunderstood, if not please post were I questioned those in Mt5:25 & Lk12:58 do not get out. You seem to be confusing Sheol with purgatory. I think you missed the ? mark at the end of the question. The following is the question I asked you.

Did Jesus also set free those souls in Sheol who were in the chamber of torment?

I posted Lk16:20-25 to show there are different levels in Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek, Hell=English the abode of the dead. Before Christ opened heaven the souls of the just went to Abraham’s Bosom in Sheol where they were comforted. There may have been a region of purgatory a few theologians think the rich man was in purgatory, most think not. The souls of the unjust went into one of the levels of torment. The just souls in Abraham’s Bosom were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. The unjust souls remain in Sheol the region of torment till the day of final judgment. When Sheol=Hades=Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

[Rv20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And **death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.]

Your post seems to imply the footnote says Verse 15 is NOT purgatory, is that what you are saying?

Since you have that information from USCCB save me hours looking for a needle in a hay stack, post the link to the page the footnote is on. I don’t question the “Day” can mean the final judgment.

If the soul is not judged and purged from works of wood, hay and stubble at death, where do they go till the end of time? They can’t go to heaven as they need to be saved as by fire. How could one be raised in a glorified body if they still needed purified of dead works at the final judgment?

“Your post seems to imply the footnote says Verse 15 is NOT purgatory, is that what you are saying?”
YES

Since you have that information from USCCB save me hours looking for a needle in a hay stack, post the link to the page the footnote is on. I don’t question the “Day” can mean the final judgment.

usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/3

One question for all.
The souls released from “sheol” ( Abraham’s bosom) did they go to heaven or purgatory?

I don’t think the Church has a position on that. They would need to enter detached from sin.

First commentary is not doctrinal teaching nor does it mean that the USCCB endorses that commentary. It certainly doesn’t mean that 1Cor3:15 cannot be used as evidence that some will be saved as by fire after death.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

Notice #607 footnote when scroll to bottom of page, 607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1031 Catechism of Catholic Church.

The footnote in The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible NT , for 1Cor3:15, ……. * “Catholic tradition interprets Paul’s teaching in light of Purgatory,” ……

Origen of Alexandria “For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only **gold and silver and precious stones **[1 Corinthians 3]; but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” (Homilies on Jeremias [c. AD 244] or Migne PG 13:445,448)

St Augustine of Hippo: [Do thou cleanse me in this life and make me such that I shall have no need to pass through the purifying flames prepared for those who will be **saved yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3 English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331] vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/augustine-on-purgatory

[1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3 English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331] vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/augustine-on-purgatory

You asked this question: If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time?

I answered telling you the soul is judged at death which is an infallible Church teaching but I can’t find any comment from you on my response.

Do you really believe the soul is not judged at death?

No thistle, I believe just as you posted in the #5 post. I was asking blanchardman that question.

thistle:
“Do you really believe the soul is not judged at death?”

Me:
The bible teaches that the souls returning with Jesus at the second coming have been judged worthy of “putting on” immortality. Those who are still living on earth will be judged worthy or not at that time. The returning saints were judged sometime after death.

jhargus:
" If the soul is not judged at death where do they go till the end of time?"
Me:
We will be on our abode( chamber, mansion) being watched over by angels.

:thumbsup:

God bless,

  1. A 90 years old atheist become a Christian who all his lifetime lived a terrible sinful life.

He has died one second after his baptism and he instantly went to heaven in heavenly glory.

  1. Another 90 years old Christian also died after 70 years faithful service of the Lord Jesus Christ and he went to the pains of purgatory for ages.

Where is the wisdom and the justice in it?

God bless.

LatinRight

No, only the saints.
The soul is judged at death.
All the saints will have a glorified (impassible) body, but the unjust will have a passible body. All will have an incorruptible body.

[LIST]
*]Matt 22 30 When the dead rise again, there is no marrying and giving in marriage; they are as the angels in heaven are.
[/LIST]

The underworld has five place names:
[LIST=1]
*]Sheol (O.T. Hebrew)
a. chamber of torment
b. chamber of rest (Bosom of Abraham)
*]Hades (N.T. Greek)
*]Gehenna (N.T. lake of fire)
*]Tartarus (N.T. Greek, demons are here)
*]Bottomless Pit (Greek:abysso)
[/LIST]

Catechism

1023 “By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven – have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature”

Luke 16:
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy life-time, and likewise Lazareth evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

Haydock Commentary
Ver. 26. Between us and you is fixed a great chaos, or gulf; i.e. God’s justice has decreed, that the bad should forever be separated from the good. We may here take notice that the Latin and Greek word, (ver. 22) translated hell, even in the Protestant translation, cannot signify only the grave. (Witham)

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Or they both go to heaven instantly. The second man will have treasures stored while the first will have nothing.

Latin, on what do you base your statement a 90 year old Christian who has been faithful for 70 years goes to purgatory for ages. Doesn’t sound like the person was very faithful if they went to purgatory for ages.

If a person has only venial sin, with no debt due forgiven mortal sin, they may go for a time to purgatory but certainly not ages. If that person has only venial sins and received the Sacrament of the Sick made a good confession they wouldn’t need to go to purgatory at all.

Both the atheist and the faithful Christian receive the same grace, which is eternal life. The faithful Christian after 70 years of service should have earned a least a little interest on the grace the Lord has given him. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been faithful. The atheist received the same grace, eternal life, but died before he had opportunity make use of his grace to lay up for himself treasures in heaven. To whom much is given much is required.

Mt6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

I agree, they both would go to heaven, but first comes judgment.

Does “the Day” say specifically, that it is the last day? No. That is man’s interpretation, not the Church’s. Do you believe in “soul sleep”? As to the rich, Jesus did not say it was impossible for the rich to enter heaven - only difficult. As to sins accruing to our souls, why then Paul’s Second letter to the Corinthians where he speaks of his ministry (to Christians!) of reconciliation? Where he forgives sin in the person of Christ, and exhorts the already-Christian Corinthians to “be reconciled to God”? It is all nonsense, unless sin is still attached or “imputed” to our souls. (2 Cor. 2, 2 Cor. 5). After all, if righteousness is “imputed” so is “unrighteousness” right?

As to mortal and venial sin, why then does John write that there is sin which leads to death and sin which does not lead to death? It’s all there in black and white in the scriptures. And, it is all in Church practice before the scriptures were written (or completed). 1 John 5:16

Since it is unlikely that you have read the books of the Maccabean revolt, neither do you know of 2 Maccabees 12:44-46:

(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Remember that God is outside of time. Thus, Creation, the fall, the Incarnation, the crucifixion - everything is present to him. We cannot view this as temporal man thinks, but as God does.

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