Purgatory


#1

How can it be that people will go to purgatory when Christ’s work on the cross was “all sufficient”? Isn’t this degrading Jesus’ work of salvation?


#2

No - because nothing that isn’t perfect can enter Heaven. And when we die, no matter how holy we might be, we are not perfect. Purgatory is where we go to be made perfect before we can be with God.

I like to think of it this way - I would never consider going on a date without getting ready first - bathing, fixing my hair, dressing up in my best, and trying to be my best. If I would do that for a person, why would I not want to do that before spending eternity with God?

~Liza


#3

I’ll have to stick with Paul and John:

Romans 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” John 5:24: “…He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Though I wish Protestants and Catholics, not to mention Eastern Orthodox and other Nicene Creed people, would not make such a poor witness to the world by being so divided over items which could be left as non-core belief disagreements (certainly to be discovered upon death!).


#4

These passages don’t have anything to do with the topic of Purgatory because Purgatory isn’t something that’s “added” to our salvation.

Purgatory is for people who are already saved and assured of heaven. It isn’t a “second chance” for “working” your way into heaven – It is is a cleansing process, as lizanne mentioned (and you ignored and did not address).

Before you draw uninformed conclusions about this subject, you need to educate yourself on what the Church teaches on this and not your preconcieved ideas. Then come back and discuss.

This will get you started.

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0602btb.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

Though I wish Protestants and Catholics, not to mention Eastern Orthodox and other Nicene Creed people, would not make such a poor witness to the world by being so divided over items which could be left as non-core belief disagreements (certainly to be discovered upon death!).

So why did YOU even bring it up – So you could have your uninformed say about it, but discourage others from correcting your misconceptions?


#5

Purgatory is justification by His blood. And it is through Him that those in Purgatory are saved.

1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

John 5:24: “…He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Yeah, but some must pass from death unto life via the test of fire.

Though I wish Protestants and Catholics, not to mention Eastern Orthodox and other Nicene Creed people, would not make such a poor witness to the world by being so divided over items which could be left as non-core belief disagreements (certainly to be discovered upon death!).

Well now, who divided the Church? Did Protestants divide from the Catholic Church? Or was it the other way around?

No, the Catholic Church is being faithful to the truth, if you want to be united to the Body of Christ, you best climb in the Bark of Peter, the surest way to salvation.

																														 																			**1 Tim 3:15** 															  But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, **which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth**. 

Sincerely,

De Maria


#6

Here is some scripture to get you thinking.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Peace,

Ryan :slight_smile:


#7

I’ve said before i’ll say it again gold plated feces is gold plated feces.
And being covered by the blood of the lamb is just trying to trick GOD. when the blood is washed away God must see a little christ under there, nothing unpure can stand before the Lord.
So you can’t just be declared rightous you must become , through the grace of God, rightous,

So…
1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day( of your personal judgement) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

it might also help to remember God is a consuming flame.:slight_smile:


#8

:thumbsup:

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Ryan :slight_smile:


#9

This seems to me to clinch the argument.


#10

**Hebrews 12:29 **

for our God is a consuming fire.

**1 Corinthians 3:10-15 **

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

**13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. **

14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so **as through fire. **

1 Peter 1:6-7

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

**Revelation 3:18-19 **

18 I advise you to buy from Me **gold refined by fire **so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

**Daniel 12:10 **

10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

And from the books that Martin Luther decided to remove…

Wisdom 3:5-6:

5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirach 2:5:

5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zechariah 13:8-9:

8 And there shall be in all the earth, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the **fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. **They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.

Malachi 3:2-3:

2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller’s herb:

3 And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.


#11

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm


#12

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory


#13

That would be “rabbinical” Judasim that believes in such a concept. Karaite Jews and other scripture only Jews do not hold this view. I once heard a Karaite Jew explain the Pharisaic Rabbinical belief in sins and the afterlife. By the way this Jew used to be an orthodox.

In short, there are 2 scales, one for bad works and one for good works. Whatever scale has more will determination if the soul goes to heaven or not. Not only that, some works are considered to be pro-rated, that is some are lighter or heavier. This Karaite Jew was also taught that if the scales even out, the soul is sent back to earth for one more act, good or bad, to tip the scales. :eek:

Anybody want to refute this tradition, look at what God says in Ezekial 18 and how the House of Israel reponds to his Word on sin and repentance, death and life. God himself said in verse 25 that Israel believes his ways are unjust. Why? Because they are adding up all the good and bad works and not repenting and getting a new heart and a new spirit(verse31)

Now this is pre-cross. In verse 21 God says a wicked man turns away from all his sins the man commited, repents, keeps all his decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live. And his sins will be remembered NO MORE. I don’t see how any analogies like “you broke the window and are forgiven, but there still is a window to replace.”-or-“you spilled milk and are forgiven, but there is still a mess to clean up” are compatible with what is being said in Ezekial 18.

In verse 24 God looks at the righteous man who turns from his righteousness and commits sins. God clearly says now his righteous things that he has done will not be remembered.


#14

I didn’t say that I agreed with all that the Jews teach, it is just instructive that they do believe that.

the important part is the passages of the Bible that I cited which do indicate a purgatorial state.


#15

This all depends on how Catholics look at God’s Words and those who see it differently look at God’s Words…

Catholics would see God’s Words as doing something. When He says let there be light, there is light, when He says to the blind man see, the blind man sees, when he changed water into wine it turned into wine.
It just doesn’t look like he sees, it doesn’t just look like something happens, He is God and He changes things with His power.
When He decides we can enter heaven He changes us and makes us pure. Since nothing unclean can enter heaven He does this by washing us in the Blood of the Lamb and makes us pure. We call that Purgatory, not by what we do, but what only God can do by making us perfect.

Some people believe that God somehow can’t see our imperfection, Catholics believe He has the power to see it and to change us.

In Christ
Scylla

(nobody believes it was all sufficient, at least something must occur, or else everyone is saved, or we don’t need any faith or love of God)


#16

I know that the non-Catholic bibles follow the Rabbinic or Hebrew OT that does not contain 2 Macc, while the Catholic canon is of the Septuagint or Greek OT. So for your sake, I won’t refer to anything that could not be found in any standard KJV Bible.

First, to understand Purgatory you need to look at (1)the difference between guilt and punishment and (2) difference between venial and mortal sin.

So does God still require punishment or penance even
after forgiveness?

King David in 2 Samuel 12:13-14:

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Even though God forgave David there was still a price to be paid in the form of suffering. If a drug addict steals from me to buy drugs, it’s my job to forgive, but he still needs to go to jail to get the help he needs.

Does the Bible make a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

1 John, chapter 5:16-17 shows that there are sins that “kill” your soul and those that injure but are not mortal.If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Also

James, chapter 14-15 but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

St. James distinguishes from beginning sin and mature sin, which brings death to the soul. So there are sins that are mortal on those that are venial.

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

• Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
• Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
• Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

This means that mortal sins cannot be done "accidentally." A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are "premeditated" by the sinner and are therefore truly a rejection of God’s law and love. 

For instance, a child cannot commit a mortal sin because there is not full knowledge or if someone is legitimately addicted to something there could be some mitigating factors to the sin (full consent of the will). If I lie to a telemarketer to get them off the phone, that is most likely venial (not of grave matter). However, if I bankrupt a multi-billion dollar corporation and lie to thousands of stockholders and employees simply for my own personal financial gain – mortal sin.

If a person dies in a perfect state of grace without any stain of sin whatsoever on them, they would go directly to heaven (good luck to all of us on that). If a person dies with a mortal sin on their soul and is totally unrepentant upon their death, they go directly to hell. I know this isn’t a popular way of thinking today, but I have yet to see any valid teaching that says different.

So what about all that are somewhere in between? They have not chosen hell, yet they are not clean enough for heaven, because nothing unclean shall enter it. (Rev 21:27)

God is perfect in holiness:

Isaiah, chapter 6:3
*And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” *

Repetition was often used in some styles of biblical writing as a form of emphasis as opposed to using adjectives, such as “very” or “totally”.

We are called to be as holy as God Himself.

Matthew, chapter 5:48
*You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect *

and

*1 Peter, chapter 1:15-16 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct;
since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” *

Without perfect holiness we will not be with God in heaven.

Hebrews, chapter 12:14
*Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. *

Continued…


#17

Rev 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it

The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven.

I’m actually surprised how many non-Catholics do not want to believe in Purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. However, God is most merciful indeed!

So basically Purgatory is a temporary state of purification for all us imperfect saints. The souls of the just who have died in a state of grace, however have venial sins or “scars” on their soul from forgiven mortal sins. They are fully cleansed when they enter into the kingdom of God.

So here is the big question; is Purgatory biblical??

Often I hear from Bible-only Christians that because the word “Purgatory” is not in the Bible so it simply cannot exist. However, these people also need to be reminded that the words “Trinity” and “incarnation” are also not in the Bible, yet these terms are a core belief of all Christians and are logically deduced from the Bible based on what scripture tells us. The same is so with the fact that there is an intermediate place between heaven and hell which has been given the term “Purgatory”.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”

Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state Purgatory.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 -
If any man’s work is burned up, he
will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved,
but only as through fire

Works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory.

The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Peter, chapter 3 18-20:
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19: in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20: who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter, chapter 4:6:
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

Note that it is a prison for disobedient spirits yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them. This cannot be hell, because no one is saved from hell and it is not limbo or “Abrahams bosom”(I think we talked about this) because it is for disobedient spirits. I really can’t imagine Moses or John the Baptist being the disobedient spirits being referred to here.

Matt. 5:26;
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny

Matt ,18:34
And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt

Luke 12:58-59 –
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."

Continued…


#18

Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
This is why the ancient Jews, early Christians, along with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches today pray for the benefit dead. This has been the practice for thousands of years and was not disputed until the last few hundred. This is also a biblical practice.

2 Timothy, chapter 1:16-18:
May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph’orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Why is St Paul praying for his already departed friend? He wouldn’t be doing it if there was no benefit and it was definitely important enough to write down. Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8).

Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

1 Corinthians, chapter 15:29:
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. The Catholic Church also recognizes the correlation between this and 2 Macc.

How long are we in Purgatory? As far as I know there is no official teaching on this. Since God, His angels, and His saints transcend all time and space it’s difficult to measure it by our watch. However, the Catholic Church does canonize certain people as “Saints” to affirm that these are holy souls we can all ask to join us in prayer. They are definitely with God and can be powerful intercessors. This does not mean that we cannot ask other holy souls to pray for us who are not canonized

I know this is real wordy, but there is a lot to say about this doctrine as well as many others. I haven’t even gotten into 2 Macc, ancient Jewish tradition, writings and practices of the early Christians, historical documents, and archeological evidence. When you add it all up, the proof is pretty concrete. And remember, God doesn’t change and neither does the truth.


#19
  1. If you are in heaven you are not prone to sin. In heaven we are perfect.

  2. While still on earth, we are still prone to sin.

So how do you think we are made perfect to enter heaven when we die?


#20

Can you show me where this “all sufficient” is taught in the Bible? Inquiring minds want to know.

My search of the word sufficient brings up these verses:

Mat 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

Joh 6:7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.

2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

2Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

None of which indicates Jesus work on the cross was all sufficient much less sufficient.


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