Q: Would we need God if the Devil didn't exist?


#21

Agree with Justinthemartyr.

I’ll add that if our predecessors Adam and Eve could see us today they would weep and want to get physically ill at what they saw in us as the consequence of their sin and what we have added to it in personal sin. Compared to them they would see us also as utterly mentally ill and spiritually blighted since even in their fallen grace they were keenly intellectual and spiritually gifted. We are so far downstream in the progression of general moral descendancy from Adam and Eve that they would see those of us not baptised and in a high state of sacramental grace as lepers that were too horrific to look upon.

James


#22

“If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.” (François-Marie Arouet) “Only a god can save us.” (Martin Heidegger)


#23

If God did not exist, neither would you or anything whatsoever… :slight_smile:


#24

No disagreement there :slight_smile: - but, none of that disagrees with the fact (see Psalm 50) that God has no need of creatures. God became a man - but is not less than God for all that. The excellence of the Bible is that it exhibits to us God as both most merciful, & also, as very terrible. Purely human writings tend to emphasise one or other; not so the written Word of God.


#25

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


#26

Just because the person chose a particular part of the CCC which emphasizes God’s relationship with us and our need for Him and His love for us, does not mean that the Church has not officially spoken on the other side of the issue.

The written Word in scripture is no different in gauge than the Oral sacred Tradition found within the infallible teachings of the church.

Therefore your idea that the teachings of the church are somehow totally swayed in one direction has no footing. The church may focus a bit more on our need for God and His love for us, since that is what we are supposed to be experiencing and it is the choice that God has made, in spite of His non necessity of our existence.

God is the one who wrote those infallible teachings in that CCC through His trusted servants over the ages.
What “seems” terrible to us, is not terrible in the least to God, but must be merciful in that god is Love itself, it is His essence.


#27

We need God to create the Universe.

That is not true. The Universe was created before our existence.

We need God to create Man.

How so?

We need God to give us His love and grace.

Yes this is true.

And ultimately, we need God to take us back to Him in eternal life.

It is only true becasue God allowed the devil to have free will and allowed him to rebel whose actions caused us to loose life.

And we need that, devil or no devil.

False also.
No rebellion in Heaven, No temptation in the Garden of Eden. No temptation in the Garden, no fall of Grace. Immortality(Eternal Life) was already granted by the presence of the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.


#28

A perfect relationship with God would be one in which there was no disobedience to his commandments,no sin. That is the state that Adam and Eve were in before the original sin.

We are not automatically sanctified just because Christ became human. We become sanctified by repentance and following the commandments and living holy lives.


#29

#30

To the contrary, humankind was sanctified by the Union of the Word made Flesh, God who became a man. If Baptism returned us to a pre-original sin state, then we would still be waiting for the promised Messiah. The promise was not a return to Eden but something much more, much better and Jesus Christ was it.

Even though Jesus has already come and brought the fullness of Revelation with Him, we like the Angels and our forefathers before are free to urthermore, we are still the frail human creatures that God created in the garden only now we have the forgiveness and the absolution that we can avail ourselves of in the sacraments.


#31

If God didn’t exist, neither would we.

Creation demands a Creator.


#32

No, we don’t NEED God to create the Universe. God created the Universe because he wanted to. His reasons are not for us to know.

We need God to create Man.

Why do we NEED God to create us? God does not need us. God created us for his own reasons. We could speculate all day why God created us. We could even cite reasons from the CCC.

We need God to give us His love and grace.

No Argument there other to ask why do we NEED his love and grace. He gives his Love and Grace for his own reasons.

And ultimately, we need God to take us back to Him in eternal life. And we need that, devil or no devil.

Only because of the Fall. Peter Da Rock was correct. No revolt in Heaven => No serpent in the Garden.
No Serpent in the Garden => No tricking Eve.
No tricking Eve => No fall.
Adam and Eve already had Immortality(eternal life). They had the Tree of Life in their midst. There was no prohibition of partaking of it. The only prohibition was partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Knowledge of Good and Evil is the essence of General Knowledge. Adam and Eve would have continued with their Naive(absence of knowledge) and Blissful existence, periodically partaking of the Tree of Life to sustain that Immortality. Peter Da Rock was wrong in assuming that they would eventually fall. That is mere specualtion as much as what I have written would be considered mere speculation. Start reading Genesis and come to a Screeching Halt at verse 2:25 and assume verses 3:1 thru 3:7 never occured. How would things have turned out without verses 3:1-7 happening. That is the gist of the question proposed by the OP.

**Answer that question and you see some type of riduculousness of this. **And we need that, devil or no devil.

The OP question was Hyperthe-]o/-]tical IMHO. My answer is a Hyperthe-]o/-]tical one.


#33

For us to exist, we needed the Creator. You don’t think we need God to create the universe? He did, regardless of whether He needed to or not. The fact is that we are here and that demands a Creator.

Eve didn’t need the serpent to tempt her for mankind to fall. She could’ve fell regardless. There was a law given by God not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Where there is law there is choice and judgment. She could’ve chosen obedience or disobedience irrespective of the serpent.

Knowledge of good and evil is not general knowledge (whatever that means). It is knowing what God knows. Even the serpent admits this in his conversation with Eve.

Peace…

MW


#34

Ditto. I’d add that it’s hard to conceive of how beautiful Adam and Eve must have been before The Fall, rather like the best of saints.

I myself have found the transformation into the Infected from “28 Days Later” to be evocative of what The Fall must have looked like to God.

My son was born six weeks ago, and, cute as he is, he clearly bears out Augustine’s take on infancy—he is a creature of uncontrollable appetites, which may be the hallmark of the original sin we all bear. Fortunately, he’ll be baptized June 1st, and hopefully settle down somewhat as a consequence. :wink:


#35

No argument there nor was there ever one.

You don’t think we need God to create the universe?

I did not say that. I said God created the the Universe whether we needed or not. Our supposed need for it is irrelavant to what actually happened.

He did, regardless of whether He needed to or not.

**It is not a matter of “He needed to or not” It is a matter of “We Needed it or not” He could have created Us without the Universe. **

The fact is that we are here and that demands a Creator.

No one is arguing that.

Eve didn’t need the serpent to tempt her for mankind to fall. She could’ve fell regardless.

**Speculation. The Serpent provided the catalyst for the fall. **

There was a law given by God not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Where there is law there is choice and judgment. She could’ve chosen obedience or disobedience irrespective of the serpent

Every instance of Choice and Judgement recorded later is based on the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Was it a Law or was it a directive? You are using a post fall(modern) definitionof Law to proclaim it involves choice and Judgement. Choice an Judgement comes only as a result of Knowledge of Good and Evil

Knowledge of good and evil is not general knowledge (whatever that means). It is knowing what God knows. Even the serpent admits this in his conversation with Eve.

So mankind knows what God knows? :rotfl:


#36

If that is true, then Adam and Eve didn’t have a choice at all because they didn’t have the knowledge of good and evil. Are you saying they didn’t have a choice? Wouldn’t that be ludicrous? If it wasn’t a choice, then pray tell…what was it?

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: ***for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ***

LOL. Doesn’t sound like a “directive”, but a commandment - a law and judgment based upon that law. He disobeyed the law. He had to suffer the consequences because judgment was pronounced. The Devil is merely an actor in the play, not the key character.

I’m glad you thought that was funny. Yes, we now know what good and evil are, something that only God knew beforehand. Man didn’t know evil till he fell. He only knew choice - law. He didn’t know what evil was like till he experienced it. We became like God in that we have this knowledge now, as (again) I alluded to earlier. The serpent shared this with Eve.

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And afterwards, Eve and Adam (once the fruit was eaten), knew they were naked and were ashamed. We are gods, for only gods know good and evil.

No, I suppose in your belief system we are raving imbeciles not much more intelligent than whales or squirrels. :rolleyes:

Peace…

MW


#37

Errrrrrrrr…without God, we wouldn’t exist. I think they have cause and effect mixed up.

I was thinking that if satan did not exist, then we would not need a Saviour, because we wouldn’t be sinful, we would be perfect as God created us.

I don’t believe Adam was made perfect. He was surely “elevated” with preternatural and supernatural gifts above and beyond the natural gifts of our own human generation. Consequently, we are “fallen,” in comparison to his “elevated” humanity. However, sin is caused by a defect in the moral agent (so says St. Thomas Aquinas), therefore, Adam was not perfect, strictly so-called.

As for whether the Incarnation was “plan B” or “plan A” according to God’s plan, this has been debated in Catholic theology for quite some time.

I tend toward the view of Blessed John Duns Scotus who asserts that “God with us” was indeed God’s “plan A.” That is, the Incarnation would have occurred out of God’s love whether mankind ever sinned or not.

According to “The Incarnation: Why God Wanted to Become Human”, by Kenneth R. Overberg, S.J.

Would the Son of God have become incarnate if humanity had not sinned? The great Dominican theologian St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) answered in the negative, viewing the Incarnation as a remedy for sin.

        Another great philosopher and theologian, Franciscan                John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), disagreed with Thomas’s emphasis on                sin. Indeed, Duns Scotus boldly proclaimed and defended the primacy                of the Incarnation. He based his view on the Scriptures and early                theologians and on logic. He argued, for example, that God’s supreme                work, the Incarnation, had to be first and foremost in God’s mind.                It could not be dependent on or occasioned by any action of humans,                especially sin.
         Even more than logic, Duns Scotus emphasized divine                love. God is love and created all life in order to communicate to                creatures the fullness of divine love. The Incarnate Word is the                foundation of the creative plan of God, the very reason for the                existence of all creation. This emphasis on Christ as the center                and cornerstone of all creation has become an essential dimension                of Franciscan life and ministry.

#38

No, it’s not speculation. Her and Adam were given the law and the consequences of disobeying that same law. Ergo, she could have fell regardless of the serpent, because it was her individual choice. The serpent was a part of the catalyst. Eve was the other part. The serpent deceived Eve. Eve made her choice based on that deception instead of God’s commandment. The garden didn’t need the presence of the serpent to produce the fall of man.

He could have done so, but it would’ve been pointless because we would have no place to live. How could we live and breathe air if there was no universe to give us the oxygen we needed? :confused:

Note: This was snipped from the original post to detail these two points.

Peace…

MW


#39

#40

:thumbsup:

This is the part that Protestants just do not comprehend in general. They understand the power of baptism to get the vessel or “the pot” clean but they just fail to understand that once its clean that Grace of God needs to be put into it and that happens over one’s lifelong participation in God’s (7) sacraments that are ONLY available through the Catholic Church. There is more beneficial grace in one Holy Mass and Eucharist than most people can get through weeks of prayer (even assuming they are not in any serious sin).

The greatest prayer is the Mass. During one of his Wednesday audiences in 1983 Pope John Paul said,

“Every Eucharistic Celebration is stronger than all the evil in the Universe. It means real, concrete accomplishment of redemption and even deeper reconciliation of sinful man with God in prospect of a better world.”

James


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