Queen of Heaven--Ishtar?


#1

I have been in an ongoing dialogue with the protestant neighbor who has been studying Judaism for the past few years. They have begun some Jewish practices and are what you would call Jews for Jesus. Her protestant roots run deep though and she is very anticatholic.

Recently we were discussing praying to the Blessed Virgin when she asked me if it was just a coincident the the Godess Ishtar is referred to in the bible as the Queen of Heaven.

Please help me! What is my come-back. Like I said these conversations are on going and she presented this to me a few months ago. I have also given her information about Rabbi Zoli, the Eucharist, and other materials when the need presents itself to no avail, it seems. So have given her needs to the Holy Spirit and offer many Masses for her.

In Christ,

Jbernardel


#2

Take a look at Psalm 45:9 and ask them who the Queen is.

Ask them about the term GEBIRAH and how that applies to Jesus Christ’s Davidic Kingdom.

Then look here:
globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/mary.htm


#3

[quote=Jbernardel]Recently we were discussing praying to the Blessed Virgin when she asked me if it was just a coincident the the Godess Ishtar is referred to in the bible as the Queen of Heaven.
[/quote]

It’s not a coincidence: it just shows the limits of human language and imagery. Just because you have a pagan version of something doesn’t mean that there isn’t a real mccoy in authentic religion. Ask this person if they would feel better if Mary was called Empress of Paradise. I suspect not. It isn’t the title she is objecting to; it is a deeper animus against the Catholic Faith, specifically Marian devotions. This is similar to the dopey charge that since some pagans employ pictures of godesses holding their children, then all depictions of Mary and baby Jesus must be pagan in origin :rolleyes: . There are just so many images common to humanity to go around.


#4

I second Bob’s observations. I’ll add: I’m not sure how protestants reading up on Judaism morph into “Jews for Jesus.” This Ishtar claptrap is a known anti-catholic point of reference, and I found this explanation to be quite clear. Here’s an excerpt:

"By this line of reasoning we could prove that Evangelicals pray to Satan when they call Jesus “the Morning Star”, because “morning star” is the literal meaning of the Hebrew word usually translated “Lucifer” in Isaiah 14:12. Identical titles do not indicate identity of persons; were this so, King Nebuchadnezzar would be Jesus, since both are called “king of kings” (Daniel 4:24; Revelation 19:16).

We must also consider the intention of Catholics. When we call Mary the Queen of Heaven we do not intend to invoke Ishtar, therefore we do not invoke Ishtar! God knows our hearts."


#5

So a pagan figure had a title that belongs to the Blessed Virgin Mary. That’s nothing new.

It’s a case of mistaken identity.


#6

[quote=The Barrister]I second Bob’s observations. I’ll add: I’m not sure how protestants reading up on Judaism morph into “Jews for Jesus.” This Ishtar claptrap is a known anti-catholic point of reference, and I found this explanation to be quite clear. Here’s an excerpt:

"By this line of reasoning we could prove that Evangelicals pray to Satan when they call Jesus “the Morning Star”, because “morning star” is the literal meaning of the Hebrew word usually translated “Lucifer” in Isaiah 14:12. Identical titles do not indicate identity of persons; were this so, King Nebuchadnezzar would be Jesus, since both are called “king of kings” (Daniel 4:24; Revelation 19:16).

We must also consider the intention of Catholics. When we call Mary the Queen of Heaven we do not intend to invoke Ishtar, therefore we do not invoke Ishtar! God knows our hearts."

[/quote]

The symbolism refering Lucifer/Satan to the morning star reflects the observence of the planet Venus as it would appear to our ancestors as the bright star that fell from heaven each morning.

Only with the greatest courtesy could the Roman symbolism of Venus be applied to Catholic symbolism of Mary.


#7

All the evil spirits knew before hand that Mary is to be the Mother of God and Queen of heaven. So before the incarnation happened, they already mocked the Blessed Virgin. They’re pretty intelligent spirits.

Pio


#8

What is the answer to a friend sho says we are worshiping the Babylonian goddess Ishtar when we honor Mary? He uses Jeremiah 44 as proof because we call Mary the Queen of Heaven.

The fact that a pagan deity was known as the queen of heaven doesn’t mean this term can’t rightfully be applied, in another sense altogether, to Mary. The pagan king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer, is called the king of kings by Daniel (Daniel 2:37), yet this doesn’t preclude Jesus from being called by the same title (Rev. 17:14; 19:16). Since the destiny of all Christians is to reign as kings and queens with Christ in heaven (Eph. 2:12; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), and since Mary is the preeminent Christian, there’s nothing wrong with giving her the title which Christ, the King of kings, bestowed upon her in making Mary his mother santa maria madre de dios ruega por nosotros…:amen:


#9

Many Protestants attack the Catholic Church’s veneration of Mary, saying she resembles the ‘Queen of Heaven’ worshipped by pagans. However, many non-Christians attack Jesus Christ in a similar manner, saying that that the Gospel accounts resemble pagan Gods who died and came back to life (like Adonis, Osiris, etc.). However, both criticisms can be disarmed by the same argument. G. K. Chesterton wrote:

[size=3]If the Christian God made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumors and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact? If we are so made that a Son of God must deliver us, is it odd that Patagonians should dream of the sudden God? When learned skeptics come to me and say ‘are you aware the Kaffirs have a sort of incarnation?’ Speaking as an unlearned person, I don’t know. But speaking as a Christian, I should be very much astonished if they hadn’t. [/size]

So, resemblances between Mary and the pagan ‘Queen of Heaven’ are no more troublesome to Catholics then resemblances of Christ to certain pagan myths. But why do we call her ‘Queen’? The reason is simple. In the Old Testament, the mother of the king held a position known as the ‘queen mother’ (this isn’t unique to Israel; look at the devotion the British people had to their ‘Queen Mum’). Jesus is not only heir to the throne of David but is the King of Kings; therefore we Catholics honor His Mother as the Ultimate Queen Mother.


#10

Such reasoning is fallacious. The Persian Emperor Darius I (522-486 B.C.)was called King of kings and Jesus is also referred to as King of Kings. Is she saying that Darius I is the same as Jesus ?

Gerry :slight_smile:


#11

That is correct. The pagan gods/goddesses do not have a monopoly on the use of those titles. Certainly one cannot “copyright” a title.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#12

By the same token Zeus was called the King of heaven and Odin was called the All Father

Would your friend suggest that the Hebrew God was merely a pagan god with a better portfolio?

Why did she single out Mary?

This got me thinking. All human cultures have developed religions. It appears to answer a deep seated need.

Hlgomez suggests that it may have been evil spirits trying to distort the truth.

But what if it was a matter of people incompletely understanding the truth?

After all we see some common threads throughout many of the world religions. Could it be that we’re all grouping towards the truth, getting a little bit of it, and that the light just clicked in Abraham’s head first?

It seems to me that a loving God would try to speak to all His children and not condemn billions due to an accident of birth.


#13

[quote=Steve Andersen]By the same token Zeus was called the King of heaven and Odin was called the All Father

Would your friend suggest that the Hebrew God was merely a pagan god with a better portfolio?

Why did she single out Mary?

This got me thinking. All human cultures have developed religions. It appears to answer a deep seated need.

Hlgomez suggests that it may have been evil spirits trying to distort the truth.

But what if it was a matter of people incompletely understanding the truth?

After all we see some common threads throughout many of the world religions. Could it be that we’re all grouping towards the truth, getting a little bit of it, and that the light just clicked in Abraham’s head first?

It seems to me that a loving God would try to speak to all His children and not condemn billions due to an accident of birth.
[/quote]

I agree with you. See my G.K Chesterton quote in post #9. Also, C.S. Lewis referred to the pagan stories of dying God’s as “good dreams.”


#14

[quote=oriel36]The symbolism refering Lucifer/Satan to the morning star reflects the observence of the planet Venus as it would appear to our ancestors as the bright star that fell from heaven each morning.

Only with the greatest courtesy could the Roman symbolism of Venus be applied to Catholic symbolism of Mary.
[/quote]

You missed his point. JESUS is called the Morning Star in the bible and by Protestants.

So his point stands. Are they invoking SATAN when the call on Jesus using the title “Morning Star”? NO. And neither are we invoking Ishtar when we call Mary “Queen of Heaven”


#15
  • [list=1] *]Queen of Heaven* is a title of the goddess Ishtar; so when Catholics call Mary *Queen of Heaven* they are really praying to Ishtar.* *]By this line of reasoning we could prove that Evangelicals pray to Satan when they call Jesus "the Morning Star", because "morning star" is the literal meaning of the Hebrew word usually translated "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12. Identical titles do not indicate identity of persons; were this so, King Nebuchadnezzar would be Jesus, since both are called "king of kings" (Daniel 4:24; Revelation 19:16). *]We must also consider the intention of Catholics. When we call Mary the Queen of Heaven we do not intend to invoke Ishtar, therefore we do not invoke Ishtar! God knows our hearts. [/list]:blessyou:

  • #16

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