Queenship of Mary

I realize that this is a doctrine of the Catholic Church as well as the fifth glorious mystery, however I DO NOT see anywhere in Scripture where it is mentioned that Jesus made Mary the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Can anyone give me a definitive answer as to where this belief originated and why it’s considered Catholic dogma?

Please do not respond with that tired line “Well it’s tradition” because with all due respect, that is not an informative answer. If it’s a tradition, then the tradition had to start somewhere and for some reason, and that is what I am asking about.

Peace of the Risen Lord to you all.

***And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; **(Revelation 12:1)
*

The mother of the king was always the queen. Jesus is the King of kings and his mother is the queen, just like the queens of the ancient world. This is the way monarchies were set up.

-Tim-

I’m sorry Tim, but that is not an answer. The quote you give from The Book of Revelation does not specifically mention that the “woman clothed with the sun…” is St. Mary. I grant you that, if you’ll pardon the pun, however, that this is not an unreasonable ASSUMPTION :wink: Nonetheless if this is divine revelation that was given to John of Patmos, then why wouldn’t it be specifically revealed that he saw Mary the Mother of Jesus clothed with the sun and the moon and the stars?

That said, your answer about the way monarchies are set up describe the way we as human beings look at things on earth. Heaven is eternal and nothing like the planet Earth, so I would not necessarily assume that Heaven is run in similar way to the ancient world.

Peace of the Risen Lord to you.

You know the heresy of Protestantism has infected Catholicism deep when questions like this are asked… any way, I think it has to do with the Old Testament and how the queen was always the mother . From Wikipedia:

Mary is called Queen of Heaven because her son, Jesus Christ, is the king of Israel and heavenly king of the universe; indeed, the Davidic tradition of Israel recognized the mother of the king as the Queen Mother of Israel

The first part of your screen name is appropriate. You asked:

Can anyone give me a definitive answer as to where this belief originated and why it’s considered Catholic dogma?

I gave you an answer and am sorry it did not please you. If all you wanted was an answer then you have it. If however, your real motive is to argue a dogma of the Church then I’m not your man.

This is the second thread you have started where you question a Catholic belief about Mary because it is not explicit in scripture. You got the first thread wrong when you said that Jesus comforted Mary on the walk to Calvary but that is pious tradition and is nowhere in the Bible.

I suggest with all due respect, that perhaps you need to read the book more before you ask questions based on its content.

-Tim-

*We have to act in such a way that others will be able to say, when they meet us: this man is a Christian, because he does not hate, because he is willing to understand, because he is not a fanatic, because he is willing to make sacrifices, because he shows that he is a man of peace, because he knows how to love.
St. Josemaria Escriva
Christ Is Passing By, 122 *

-Tim-

Timothy H has already provided an excellent response. If I may,

  1. In the Old Testament, the King’s mother was recognized as the Queen, as Bathsheba was recognized as Queen because she was Solomon’s mother. Mary’s title of Queen naturally solidified after she was formerly confirmed as “Mother of God” at the First Council of Ephesus in 431, the council being called to combat the heretical teachings of Nestorius who insisted that Mary was only the mother of the Christ (denying that Jesus was truly and fully human and divine).

  2. Catholics recognize the woman in Revelation 12:1 as being Mary, “crowned with 12 stars.”

  3. St. Paul himself looked forward to a “crown of righteousness” as noted in his Second letter to Timothy (4;8).

  4. Revelation 4:10 describes all the blessed in heaven as having crowns.

:thumbsup: Good post.

Where does it say in the Bible that it has to be in the Bible to be true?

Is the Bible the only authority from a Catholic Perspective?

Is the Bible the only authority from a Catholic Perspective?

From a Catholic perspective, NO the Bible is NOT the only authority, however I do not think that I’m being unreasonable when I ask for a rational explanation for this belief other than “it’s a part of our Catholic tradition.”

That said, I would be a lot more comfortable with this belief that Catholicism promotes IF, like the visitation encounter with John the Baptist in the womb as well as the annunciation to St. Mary from the archangel Gabriel, it had been specifically mentioned in at least ONE of the Gospels that the Catholic Church reads from each weekend. I feel the same way about the Assumption as well as the other question I asked about whether or not Jesus appeared to Mary His Blessed Mother POST-Resurrection. I find it odd that it’s not mentioned that Jesus did not do this, considering all that they went through together, but alas, that is in a different thread.

FYI—YES I am a cynical realist, but since when is it a bad thing to question traditions that we were brought up with but not taught the origins of? I don’t think the Catholic Church minds being held up to scrutiny, and hence I don’t believe that we as Catholics should shun being held up to scrutiny either! We need to be able to confidently DEFEND what we believe with answers other than “it’s a tradition.”

Right…your post sounded like you were downplaying the role of Tradition when you said “Please do not respond with that tired line “Well it’s tradition” because with all due respect, that is not an informative answer”…

Sacred Tradition along with Sacred Scripture is an informative answer if you know where to look.

Here’s a website I visit often, the link takes you straight to the topic you are asking about.

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Okay, I’ll bite.

VI. Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? (WHERE is Mary compared to the Ark of the Covenant in Scripture. Would God do any less for Mary? I have no idea, but that doesn’t give any evidence that God DID. That is an assumption in and of itself).

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother. (So a fiery chariot came down and brought Mary up to heaven, did it? Since that specific incident is mentioned in the Second Book of Kings, and it’s a spectacular event, then why wouldn’t such a spectacular event be mentioned in the Gospels or the Acts of the Apostles if it occurred, since Mary is presumably more important than Elijah?)

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven. (Okay, but SO were Peter, Paul, Andrew, Jude Thaddeus, and the other saints, but NO mention of a bodily assumption is mentioned of the other saints either. As for Mary being the “ark of the covenant” well please see above. Comparing Mary to the Ark of the Covenant was done by future saints, NOT any of the Gospel writers)

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God. (Of course Mary was brought up to heaven upon her death. So Paul speaks about a man he knew caught up to the third heaven. Was THIS man also assumed body and soul into heaven? Paul himself says that he does not know, but either way Paul makes no mention of Mary being both body and soul in heaven. In fact the second sentence that says "Mary was also brought up into heaven by God is NOT mentioned anywhere in that passage of Corinthians).

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven. (Mary was still alive at this point. As for the saints rising out of their tombs, don’t you find it odd that such an event was not recorded anywhere else in history? I was always taught in Catholic schools that this passage referred to the souls of the dead finally getting entrance into heaven. And for that matter, then why weren’t any of the other disciples such as Stephen assumed body and soul into heaven as well?).

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord. (This speaks of a future event, not the assumption that we celebrate on August 15th)

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul. (First of all this does not name Mary as the woman, although it’s not unreasonable to, pardon the pun, make this ASSUMPTION.:rolleyes: That said, if you read the entire passage it is very confusing because it combines what Catholic tradition has taught us to be previous events, such as Satan being cast out of Heaven when Michael’s army defeats Satan and the rebellious angels, with future events such as the woman being given great wings of an eagle to fly away into the desert—Mary never did that. For that matter, if this is a future event, then the woman couldn’t possibly be Mary because Mary has already done this. The Book of Revelation is a very esoteric and symbolic book, hence the popularity of it, especially when trying to predict end times previews. That said, this passage does not verify that Mary was assumed into Heaven, and the passage itself is confusing since Mary fled into Egypt but nowhere is it mentioned that she grew eagle’s wings to get there).

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven. (Okay but at that point the notion of the Assumption was not an oral tradition. For that matter, if you want to use the notion of claiming the bones of saints being a common practice and that Mary’s bones would have been especially important, I would also then assume that the bones of Lazarus and Mary and Martha were also important, ESPECIALLY Lazarus, as well as Jairus’ daughter and the young man who Christ raised out from the dead to return to the man’s grieving mother. I don’t know of the bones of any of the aforementioned people being saved, nor do I know of the bones of John the Baptist being saved. For that matter if it was important to save the bones of the saints, then what about all those saints from Matthew 27: 52-53? How were their bones found and saved if they actually had been taken body and soul into heaven?)

FYI—I’m enjoying this conversation, but if I DO NOT want to come off as belligerent. Believe it or not, I actually WOULD like to be able to defend the Catholic faith with some rational logic and Scriptural answersrather than wishful conclusions such as “Mary was the ark of the covenant” so that somehow means that she was assumed body and soul into heaven. Sorry if that comes off as belligerent, but we as Catholics are going to have to do better than such things if we are to engage the non-believers.

Peace of the Risen Lord to you.

Maybe you should email Bishop-elect Barron, Dr. Peter Kreeft, Dn. Sabatino Carnazzo or Dr. Scott Hahn. Your questions are legitimate and valid, however, there needs to be a common premise and basic foundation for you and the responder to come to an adequate answer for you. This is very difficult without spoken word and a theological world view.

Suffice to say, the Apostolic Fathers, including those that wrote and compiled the Bible saw all of the figures of the Old Testament as imperfect prefigurments of the New. When you look at the entire Bible with this ‘Apostolic, Catholic’ mindset, keeping the literal meaning but secondary to the Covenantal, everything Catholicism teaches makes sense.

As for the relics of all those Saints you mentioned - yes, in fact, many Churches Catholic and Orthodox throughout the world claim pieces of all these saints.

You are talking about two different things. Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth and the Assumption of Mary into Heaven are two different things. Your original post had to do with Mary’s queenship.

The mother of the king was always the queen. Jesus is the King of kings and so his Mother is the Queen. The Hebrew word or title for Queen Mother is Gebirah.

*He also removed Ma’acah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Ashe’rah; and Asa cut down her image and burned it at the brook Kidron. (1 Kings 15:13)

Jehu met the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah king of Judah, and he said, “Who are you?” And they answered, "We are the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah, and we came down to visit the royal princes and the sons of the queen mother." . (2 Kings 10:13)

Say to the king and the queen mother:
“Take a lowly seat,
for your beautiful crown
has come down from your head.”
(Jerimiah 13:18)*

The Gebirah occupied a very important place in the kingdom. Her role was to advocate for the common man before the King. The role of the Gebirah was so important that twenty nine of them are listed in the Bible.

*He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jeho-ad’din of Jerusalem. (2 Kings 14:2)

He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jeru’sha the daughter of Zadok. (2 Kings 21:19)

Ahazi’ah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athali’ah, the granddaughter of Omri. (2 Chronicles 22:2)*

The Bible goes on and on and on like this, twenty nine times!

When God tells us something in the Bible two or three times it is important. When God tells us something twenty nine times we had better pay attention. God is telling us who the Queen Mother is because her role as queen is so important to us - she is the one who is is able to enter the presence of the king and intercede for the common man. Esther and Bathsheba are perfect examples.

Mary’s cousin Elizabeth acknowledges that the Gebirah has visited her.

*** And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord** should come to me? (Luke 1:43)*

This has been acknowledged and celebrated throughout the entire history of Christianty. Pope Pius XII lists the saints, early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, devotions and ancient prayers that confirm all this throughout the past 2000 years in the encyclical AD CAELI REGINAM.

That is your answer. Please don’t tell me that it is not an answer because that’s all the Church has. There isn’t anything else. If you don’t like that answer then take it up with the Church because that’s all there is.

-Tim-

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