Query about Millenialism or Millenarianism and Catholicism

I’ve read that before. It helped a little, but it’s focusing on the Rapture. There is no rapture coming into play here, no one is getting taken away or left. It’s just an issue of “bringing about God’s kingdom on earth” by praying in a certain manner. The prayers themselves are okay. I’m just trying to understand why people like Fr. Hardon would object to the underlying concept.

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There’s a book by Dr. Paul Thigpen called “The Rapture Trap”…that deals with the rapture and millennialism…both of these subjects are tied together in some Protestant teachings…I do know as a former Pentecostal that we did pray continually for both the rapture and the millennial reign of Christ…so it just seems strange that Catholics would be praying for something that is tied to the rapture…by the way we do pray in the OUR FATHER…“thy kingdom come”.

Maybe that’s what Fr. Hardon thought…

I frankly interpreted “bringing about God’s kingdom” as meaning God would bring the Second Coming, not that we were all going to sit around living in earthly Eden for years. But then I remembered this business I read as a child about a period of peace before end of the world.

Right. That’s generally the post-millennial position, isn’t it? Their claim is that we (humans) help bring about and usher in a period of utopia here on earth. (That view kinda tucked its tail and slunk away after the experiences of the 20th century – wars, genocides, etc, etc.)

The Catholic position differs in that we say that the realization of ‘utopia’ is really the eschaton, and not something that we humans do here on earth.

Most life long Catholics probably don’t realize that many Pentecostal/Evangelical Protestants actually believe these events are unfolding now and the end times are near…one of the most telling beliefs is the restoring of Israel as a nation which happened in 1948…here is an article that gives a pretty good idea what many believe…and personally I can’t help wondering if President Trumps prayer team who are made up of these same Evangelical Pastors are using the President to bring about these same end times beliefs…pretty scary if that is the case

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For many of us who were born significantly after WWII, we’ve been hearing “the end times are near” for our entire life. And since then we had the Cold War and Y2K and all the fuss about both of them. So it’s just another day at the office for me really.

I thought the belief that Israel would be restored before end of the world was generally held by Christians including Catholics, as well as by the Jewish people. Am I wrong on that? I never associated that belief particularly with Evangelical Protestantism.



For many of us who were born significantly after WWII, we’ve been hearing “the end times are near” for our entire life. And since then we had the Cold War and Y2K and all the fuss about both of them. So it’s just another day at the office for me really.

I thought the belief that Israel would be restored before end of the world was generally held by Christians including Catholics, as well as by the Jewish people. Am I wrong on that? I never associated that belief particularly with Evangelical Protestantism.

m not to sure about that…but so do many believe that “God will bless those who bless Israel”…especially here in the US…here is an article from a Catholic site that says that in fact the (Catholic) church is the new Israel…that puts a whole new perspective on it

Good grief. I’ll think if I didn’t take the Evangelical end-times stuff with a grain of salt I would be very confused. I mean, ISIS is also trying to bring about the end-times, except, I don’t believe Israel being a sovereign state is part of their utopian vision. But would I take those particular motivations of ISIS fighters with a grain of salt though.

I can’t imagine that Trump is surrounded by folks who are having an end-times ideological pissing contest with radical Islamists. That sounds too awful to be true.

In City of God, St Augustine clearly rejects the idea of end of the world after 6000 years. And he was living when this period was not yet complete. He says nobody knows the day and hour. He was an amillenialist for sure.

That’s the same concern that some suggested, back when Reagan was president.

:rofl: :+1: :+1:

That depends on what you mean by “the restoration of Israel”, doesn’t it? IIRC, Catholics would say that “Israel” is reconstituted by virtue of Jesus and His Church! That is to say, the Lost Tribes – assimilated into the nations – are now reconstituted into the family of God by virtue of Christ’s New Covenant and His Church in which they are members.

If, on the other hand, you mean a restoration of temple worship and sacrifices for Israel, then no – that’s the dispensationalists’ belief system.

This one I suggest for converts.

This one for lifelong Catholics

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Sorry if my question is off-topic, but I can’t find a specific thread relating to my question. Maybe someone here can give a philosophical answer. My question is, if God created us in his image with a free will to do right or wrong, isn’t ending humanity the ultimate punishment? More specifically, why would God feel the need to end the world, ever? Why is there a beginning and ending for humanity?

So, here’s the thing: there’s no “end” to humanity. We will reach a point when there are no more babies being born, but the existing humans? Oh, we’ll live for eternity, either in heaven or in hell!

What God will ‘end’ is the universe: at the end of time, the universe will end, and in its place, God will create a “new heavens and a new earth”. All humans will continue to exist – and, in fact, we will receive glorified bodies. So… humanity never comes to an end!

I might be nit-picking, but why would God end the universe? To bring his flock home maybe? I still find it difficult to understand the concept of ending the universe. We, as humans, will ultimately be judged at the time of our death, so God would still be bringing us home, just not millions of people at the same time.

Though the prophecies of the mass conversion of the Jews in the Last Days do strongly suggest that those conversions will take place in the Promised Land. I certainly wouldn’t dare suggest that the current regathering of the Jews to their ancient homeland isn’t God’s way of telling them that He hasn’t forgotten about them and preparing them for their conversion.

This present universe is subject to all manner of decay; it cannot last forever in its present state. If the Lord brought forth the New Jerusalem in this present universe, the blessed would see the day when the stars were no more and the beauty of the universe has faded into darkness. The heavens would cease declaring the glory of God, which would not be fitting. Rather, the Lord says, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Thank you mythbuster1. My brain would wrap around the concept that the earth and universe are not destined to last forever, much to my disappointment. Thus, Armageddon would actually be an act of survival for humanity, God is actually saving us, from our own destruction and the collapse of the physical universe. Some deep thinking there.

The description of the destruction and renewal of the universe in 2 Peter 3:8-13 is consistent with the decay of a false vacuum to a true vacuum. There is strong, though not indisputable, evidence that our present universe is a false vacuum. Scientists can’t make any predictions about what the new universe would be like, other than that it would have radically different physics.

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There will be no theocracy or formal realization of God’s kingdom on earth; the Church strictly rejects that notion even as she naturally supports our striving for Gods will to be done everywhere.

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

1048 " We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men."641

1049 "Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society."642

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