Question about Anglican Use


#1

Greetings Everyone,

Though a loyal Catholic, I feel that the Anglican liturgical tradition is one of the great treasures of Western civilization. I can only get my “fix,” so to speak, by attending High Mass at the local Episcopal cathedral (The Cathedral of the Incarnation in Garden City, New York, for those who may be interested), to which I sometimes venture after attending early-morning Sunday Mass with my family at our regular parish. Upon hearing about the Anglican Use phenomenon, I was, of course, overjoyed, for it represents a magnificent fusion of the Roman with the Anglican. Sadly, the nearest Anglican Use church is in Rochester, which is easily a day’s journey away from me, so it seems as if I will have to content myself with my occasional Episcopalian dalliances :D.

My question is more theoretical than anything: Hypothetically, is it possible for a run-of-the-mill Latin-Rite-since-its-inception Catholic church to adopt an Anglican Use structure, however unlikely that may be? Though I sadly do not count on ever being able to attend Evensong at my local parish (or, for that matter, sing “And Did Those Feet In Ancient Time” on St. George’s Day :cool:), I suppose I can “dare to dream.” :slight_smile:


#2

:popcorn: Will watch this with interest


#3

This in not an authoritive answer - but my best guess.

I understand the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham is not open to let Latin Rite catholics change rites to Anglican Rite Catholic. You must convert to this from Anglicanism (or related sect) or be born into it or otherwise be baptised into it.
The same will be true of the equivalent Anglican Rite Catholic churches in other countries.

However Latin Rite Catholics are welcome to participate in Anglican Right Catholic Liturgies.

that said. Evensong is derived from the Divine Office. This has a current Latin Rite version, and it is fully appropriate for a Latin Rite parish to publicly celebrate this.
It is commonly known as "Vespers" or "Evening Prayer" this latter name is where the term "Evensong" originate (assuming a sung celebration of this prayer).

Within Latin Catholicism, the public celebration of the Divine Office is part of the "Cathedral Tradition" and part of the tradition of all Religious orders (though some have their own variations)

The General Instruction to the Divine office reccomends that the Divine Office is used as the structure or at least the inspiration for most prayer groups or public worship outside the Mass or other defined structures.

Therefore:
It is Fully and Highly appropriate for you to ask to form or participate in Evening Prayer in your Parish Church. If you or others you can encourage to assist have the musical skill this can and if possible should incorporate music. this may be from any appropriate tradition.
However the version and translation of the Divine Office used should ideally be from the officaial Divine Office approved for your country or region.
Using other versions may be permissible, but it is then considered a personal devotion, not a formal liturgy (this is similar status to the Rosary which is a personal devotion not a Liturgy). When celebrated in accordance with the approved texts, it may qualify as a formal Liturgy.

Your Priest or Deacon should support you in this and will hopefully be willing to participate and lead it. However this Liturgy does not require an ordained man to lead it if one is not available.

There is no problem with drawing inspiration from the Anglican rite musical forms and using them in a Latin Rite celebration of Vespers.

Link to the approved text on Amazon.com
Morning and evening Prayer

Most Catholic bookshops will stock this or other version and all can get it.
It's a sub-set of the full Divine Office with is a 4 volume set published by St. Josephs Press in the US or a 3 volume set published by Collins in the UK. - Officially you must use your countries version as the translation varies and so do the saints days and some other feasts.


#4

The answer to your question is; YES!

But..... the problem you have is this;

Anglican (Episcopal) Ordinations are completely invalid. Pope Leo XIII said in his Aposotolic Letter Apostolicae Curae that all all Anglican Ordinations were "absolutely null and utterly void". This is not because they are heretics, but because of the way in which they are ordained

Therefore, a "High Mass" in an Episcopal Church with an Episcopal "Priest" is therefore completely invalid, because a Priest isn't actually making the same sacrifice that a Priest could make with this rite. (It would be like you or me walking up to the altar and chanting the Mass; it just wouldn't work).

It is perfectly alright for us "Latins" to attend Anglican Use. I think it is a great tradition, but it is only "great" (so to speak) if an ordained Priest actually makes the same sacrifice that takes place in Greek, Latin or Coptic Catholic Churches. The Anglican Tradition is wonderful, and we, as laymen, are allowed to adopt this tradition, provided we remain in full communion with the Catholic Church. However, Roman rite Priests are generally not allowed to celebrate the Anglican Use Liturgy, because it can only be celebrated by Priests that have converted from Anglicanism or are part of the Anglo-Catholic Tradition in some way.

Go along to Anglican Use Mass! Just make sure the Church is actually Catholic first! I would certainly discourage you from attending Episcopalian Churches.

God be with you,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:


#5

For your information;
The post above my last one is also correct.

It is perfectly legitimate to attend Evensong in the Episcopalian Cathedral, as anyone could theoretically lead or preside over such a service. I can re-iterate, Anglican Evensong is very similar to Roman Vespers, it is the same concept, but keeping to the traditions that have developed in the Church.

In magnam fidem,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:


#6

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:5, topic:321557"]
For your information;
The post above my last one is also correct.

It is perfectly legitimate to attend Evensong in the Episcopalian Cathedral, as anyone could theoretically lead or preside over such a service. I can re-iterate, Anglican Evensong is very similar to Roman Vespers, it is the same concept, but keeping to the traditions that have developed in the Church.

In magnam fidem,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:

[/quote]

The difference of course is that Choral Vespers in the Catholic Church is now as rare as a hen's tooth wheras all the Anglican Cathedrals have daily choral evensong, and most parish churches a either a sung or choral version. Personally I prefer Evensong to Vespers as it normally includes 3 hymns and an anthem. I wish more Catholic churches would develop choirs to sing it.


#7

[quote="MusicFan221, post:1, topic:321557"]

My question is more theoretical than anything: Hypothetically, is it possible for a run-of-the-mill Latin-Rite-since-its-inception Catholic church to adopt an Anglican Use structure, however unlikely that may be?

[/quote]

No.


#8

[quote=1ke;10577103*
Originally Posted by MusicFan221

My question is more theoretical than anything: Hypothetically, is it possible for a run-of-the-mill Latin-Rite-since-its-inception Catholic church to adopt an Anglican Use structure, however unlikely that may be?
[/quote]

No.

You answered no?? Anyone can attend Anglican Use Masses and receive most Sacraments according to such rites. It is only not permissible to receive Holy Orders in such a way. This is why the Ordinariates were made so that Anglican "Priests" could easily come into communion with the Catholic Church, and thus, they would be ordained as Priests properly.

The answer to your question is; YES! You just can't easily become an Anglican-Use Priest without an Anglican-Use background.


#9

[quote="anruari, post:3, topic:321557"]
I understand the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham is not open to let Latin Rite catholics change rites to Anglican Rite Catholic. You must convert to this from Anglicanism (or related sect) or be born into it or otherwise be baptised into it.

[/quote]

The Anglican Use is not a separate Rite but a use of the Roman Rite. All Catholics in the Ordinariates are Latin Rite Catholics.


#10

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:5, topic:321557"]
For your information;
The post above my last one is also correct.

It is perfectly legitimate to attend Evensong in the Episcopalian Cathedral, as anyone could theoretically lead or preside over such a service. I can re-iterate, Anglican Evensong is very similar to Roman Vespers, it is the same concept, but keeping to the traditions that have developed in the Church.

In magnam fidem,
Deus, Salus Nostra :gopray2:

[/quote]

I was going to point out that the OP made no reference to Anglican services which include Holy Communion - but I see you've re-posted to take this into account.

The O.P. was however (so far as I know) referring to the newly permitted use of a modified version of the Book of Common Prayer, with specific heretical concepts removed, for converts to Catholicism from Episcopalian communities.
These form a new Rite within the Catholic Church which was formed just a few years ago.
Within the UK they are structured around a "Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham". I believe similar structures are being planned for other jurisdictions.


#11

I just discovered: In the USA the Personal ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter was established in 2012.

This is a fully Catholic organisation, formed for converts from Anglicanism. For further details the OP or others should approach them directly.


#12

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]
You answered no?? Anyone can attend Anglican Use Masses and receive most Sacraments according to such rites. It is only not permissible to receive Holy Orders in such a way. This is why the Ordinariates were made so that Anglican "Priests" could easily come into communion with the Catholic Church, and thus, they would be ordained as Priests properly.

The answer to your question is; YES! You just can't easily become an Anglican-Use Priest without an Anglican-Use background.

[/quote]

That's not the question Ike answered. Ike answered correctly.

Yes, any Catholic can attend Anglican Use Masses.
No, not any Catholic can become canonical members of the Ordinariate (as per Anglicanorum coetibus and complementary norms). One has to be formerly Anglican or have family members who are to do this.
Therefore, no run-of-the-mill always-Catholic parish can just use the Anglican Use liturgy. Perhaps permission can be obtained from the Holy See but I've never heard of this being done.


#13

[quote="anruari, post:10, topic:321557"]
I was going to point out that the OP made no reference to Anglican services which include Holy Communion - but I see you've re-posted to take this into account.

The O.P. was however (so far as I know) referring to the newly permitted use of a modified version of the Book of Common Prayer, with specific heretical concepts removed, for converts to Catholicism from Episcopalian communities.
These form a new Rite within the Catholic Church which was formed just a few years ago.
Within the UK they are structured around a "Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham". I believe similar structures are being planned for other jurisdictions.

[/quote]

They do not form a new Rite. They remain part of the Roman Rite, but they have become a new Use of that same Roman Rite. This brings the number of current Uses of the Roman Rite to three.


#14

[quote="porthos11, post:13, topic:321557"]
They do not form a new Rite. They remain part of the Roman Rite, but they have become a new Use of that same Roman Rite. This brings the number of current Uses of the Roman Rite to three.

[/quote]

My apologies. You are correct. They have dispensations and privileges similar to those of other Rites, but are technically not a separate Rite.

However... as a private devotion, having a group who meet to pray Evensong, in the style of the Anglican Use would be no different than a group who meet to pray Evening Prayer as published in Magnificat.
It is similar to but not the formal Divine Office, but it's fine for a Private Devotion - even if prayed as a group inside the Chapel.

Of course If there are many converts from anglicianism in the OP's parish it may be appropriate for them to request Anglican Use services in that or a neighbouring parish.


#15

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]
You answered no??

[/quote]

Yes, I answered no because the answer is no.

A Catholic parish cannot become an Anglican Use parish.

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]
Anyone can attend Anglican Use Masses and receive most Sacraments according to such rites.

[/quote]

Of course. That, however, is not the question asked and not the question I was answering. The question was not about whether or not an individual Catholic could attend the Anglican Use. The question was whether or not a Latin Rite Catholic parish could become an Anglican Use parish. The answer is: NO.

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]

It is only not permissible to receive Holy Orders in such a way. This is why the Ordinariates were made so that Anglican "Priests" could easily come into communion with the Catholic Church, and thus, they would be ordained as Priests properly.

[/quote]

Anglican priests can (and have been) ordained Catholic priests with or without the Ordinariate. That is not the purpose of the Ordinariate.

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]
The answer to your question is; YES!

[/quote]

I think you misread the question.

[quote="DeusSalusNostra, post:8, topic:321557"]
You just can't easily become an Anglican-Use Priest without an Anglican-Use background.

[/quote]

Rather, you cannot become an Ordinariate priest at all without meeting the specific criteria of the Ordinariate.


#16

Just to cheer you up may be

I am Anglican and I am English, very English living in a small town in Yorkshire born and bred there etc and think I have never ever sung And did those feet in Ancient times on St George's Day. I have heard you guys do on here and am suprised by that I really am.

BTW am related to Parry 7th great grandfather. But never heard of singing Jerusalem on St George's Day. Why do you guys do that:)


#17

The difference of course is that Choral Vespers in the Catholic Church is now as rare as a hen's tooth wheras all the Anglican Cathedrals have daily choral evensong, and most parish churches a either a sung or choral version. Personally I prefer Evensong to Vespers as it normally includes 3 hymns and an anthem. I wish more Catholic churches would develop choirs to sing it.

This.

Sadly, such an arrangement would not work at my parish, which has a threadbare folkish volunteer choir for our Sunday services, and is devoid of the standard "choir" section that one might find in a cathedral (or even in most Episcopal churches). Even our local Catholic cathedral does not offer a regular sung vespers/evensong service, which I find to be scandalous! :shrug:

By the way, I am well aware that high mass at an Episcopal cathedral does not satisfy the Sunday requirement - hence why I attended BOTH Catholic Mass and the Episcopal service :).

In a way, the Episcopalians, for all of the tribulations that are tearing their conference asunder, can teach us much about the proper conduct of our own liturgy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Anglo-Catholic liturgy present in most Episcopal churches is a direct result of the Oxford Movement in the Church of England, which aimed to infuse (or rather, restore) a Catholic liturgical splendor to the established Church - a splendor that a shoddy implementation of Vatican II did much to cut away from the Latin Rite. So, for me, attending an Anglo-Catholic mass is an attempt to recover a part of my spiritual self that was lost long ago - or rather, that never even had the slightest chance of youthful cultivation, as I was born in 1990. Consequently, I think of my sometime-indulgence in the Anglican tradition as an attempt to revive the glories of the Catholic past through the "human wormholes" that the Anglican liturgy affords us. The fact that it has an English flair, and is just as comfortable with Tallis, Byrd, Holst, and Vaughan Williams as it is with Latin propers is an added bonus :cool:.


#18

I am Anglican and I am English, very English living in a small town in Yorkshire born and bred there etc and think I have never ever sung And did those feet in Ancient times on St George's Day. I have heard you guys do on here and am suprised by that I really am.

BTW am related to Parry 7th great grandfather. But never heard of singing Jerusalem on St George's Day. Why do you guys do that

Firstly, it is a tremendous honor to meet the descendant of a musical great like Parry, even if it is through the Internet! I couldn't help but glance at your profile, and you note that you enjoy singing in choirs - I applaud your devotion to the musical craft, though I do suppose it runs in the family :cool:.

I must apologize that my claim was in error, as I had only read on Wikipedia that "And Did Those Feet" was traditionally sung on St. George's Day - shoddy research on my part! :eek:


#19

[quote="MusicFan221, post:17, topic:321557"]
This.

Sadly, such an arrangement would not work at my parish, which has a threadbare folkish volunteer choir for our Sunday services, and is devoid of the standard "choir" section that one might find in a cathedral (or even in most Episcopal churches). Even our local Catholic cathedral does not offer a regular sung vespers/evensong service, which I find to be scandalous! :shrug:

By the way, I am well aware that high mass at an Episcopal cathedral does not satisfy the Sunday requirement - hence why I attended BOTH Catholic Mass and the Episcopal service :).

In a way, the Episcopalians, for all of the tribulations that are tearing their conference asunder, can teach us much about the proper conduct of our own liturgy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Anglo-Catholic liturgy present in most Episcopal churches is a direct result of the Oxford Movement in the Church of England, which aimed to infuse (or rather, restore) a Catholic liturgical splendor to the established Church - a splendor that a shoddy implementation of Vatican II did much to cut away from the Latin Rite. So, for me, attending an Anglo-Catholic mass is an attempt to recover a part of my spiritual self that was lost long ago - or rather, that never even had the slightest chance of youthful cultivation, as I was born in 1990. Consequently, I think of my sometime-indulgence in the Anglican tradition as an attempt to revive the glories of the Catholic past through the "human wormholes" that the Anglican liturgy affords us. The fact that it has an English flair, and is just as comfortable with Tallis, Byrd, Holst, and Vaughan Williams as it is with Latin propers is an added bonus :cool:.

[/quote]

I also desire a return for sung Vespers. As much as I love Gregorian Chant, I desire a return of good polyphony in our choirs, not just choral hymns we hear now. I attend a local Anglican Ordinariate and their choir sings beutiful polyphony. I feel with a growth in the ordinariate, there is hope for a rise in sacred music


#20

[quote="MusicFan221, post:18, topic:321557"]
Firstly, it is a tremendous honor to meet the descendant of a musical great like Parry, even if it is through the Internet! I couldn't help but glance at your profile, and you note that you enjoy singing in choirs - I applaud your devotion to the musical craft, though I do suppose it runs in the family :cool:. I just enjoy music and I sing. I am not very good at it though I suppose that a confidence thing but I enjoy it and it my way of dealing with life. I can hold a tune when someone else is doing so and go flat on my own :eek: and the two choirs are easy by standard of choirs out there.

I must apologize that my claim was in error, as I had only read on Wikipedia that "And Did Those Feet" was traditionally sung on St. George's Day - shoddy research on my part! :eek:

[/quote]

No worries because I have read it here before that Jerusalem is used on St George's day by other members :thumbsup:


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.