Question about praying to the communion of saints

What is the response to these questions?

Can you, as a Catholic, pray directly to Jesus, not going through Mary, and ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins?

If you did, would you be forgiven of all your sins?

If you were, then do you need all the rituals and sacraments of the RCC?

If you’re not forgiven by Jesus, then why is Jesus not enough to save you?

I’m going to treat this as a distinct question: yes, you can pray directly to Jesus. You can also pray to the saints, asking them to intercede on your behalf. (When I pray, I pray to Jesus and to the saints for intercession! Why does it have to be one or the other?)

, and ask Jesus to forgive you of all of your sins?

You can… but what did Jesus set up as the means for the forgiveness of sins? Direct prayer to Him?

If you did, would you be forgiven of all your sins?

If you were forgiven, how would you know it? After all, Jesus tells us that not all who cry out “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven!

If you were, then do you need all the rituals and sacraments of the RCC?

Because that’s what Jesus Himself set up. See John 20:23 – Jesus Himself is telling the apostles to forgive sins (and that He will forgive the sins that the apostles absolve). We need the sacraments of the Church because Jesus himself gave them to us as necessary! We must be baptized – we must eat His flesh and drink His blood (or else we have no life in us) – we must be absolved of our sins!

If you’re not forgiven by Jesus, then why is Jesus not enough to save you?

The whole point of the sacrament is that Jesus is forgiving you, through the agency of the priest’s absolution in the sacrament of reconciliation!

You, as a Catholic are Required to pray to God. You may, as a Catholic Christian, ask Mary, your family, your pastor or any other person to pray for you.

Now that you have answers to your questions, Here are some questions for you:
Do you know who founded your church and when?
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Evangelical or Non-Denominational, your church was founded by a group of Protestant ministers in the 1960’s.

If you can’t trace the chief Pastors of your church back to one of Christs 12 Apostles, then yours in Not the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

Great resposnses from Gorgias. And then it’s YOUR turn to ask questions, such as:

Since Jesus died that ALL might have eternal life, why must I say a sinner’s prayer or make a decision to have faith in Him? Why isn’t it enough for Jesus to have died for me; why must I also believe? Why do I have to add to His Work by giving an assent of Faith?

Who does Scripture say we should confess our sins to? (Chapter and verse, please)

Since Scripture commands us to confess our sins to “one another” (Jam 5:16), shouldn’t we confess our sins to one another instead of only going straight to God alone?

Since Christ gave the leaders in His Church the power to forgive AND retain people’s sins, doesn’t it make sense that they would need to know the sins of the people whose sins they are forgiving or retaining?

How did God choose to come into the world for our salvation? Couldn’t He have chosen any means He wanted, and yet He chose a very specific means. If it was important enough to God to use Mary, shouldn’t that be important to us?

You, as a Catholic are Required to pray to God. You may, as a Catholic Christian, ask Mary, your family, your pastor or any other person to pray for you.

Now that you have answers to your questions, Here are some questions for you:
Do you know who founded your church and when?
If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Evangelical or Non-Denominational, your church was founded by a group of Protestant ministers in the 1960’s.

If your church was not founded when Jesus Christ founded His Church 2000 years ago and if you can’t trace the chief Pastors of your church back to one of Christs 12 Apostles, then yours in Not the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

Hey StuMondo,

I like this argument because it’s based in logic–Protestants beginning to truly think rationally about the theology they believe in can only be a good thing.

One can simplify it even further by deconstructing it into if-then statements:

If–

  1. I can directly ask Jesus to forgive me my sins through prayer, and
  2. a) If–Jesus is omnipotent, b) Then–Jesus can grant my request,
    Then–
  3. The Church’s sacrament of Reconciliation is unnecessary for the forgiveness of sins.

For the Church’s teaching to be true, either one of the premises must be false (they’re not) or the argument must be a non-sequitur (it is–subtly); i.e., the conclusion doesn’t follow from the previous statements.

The shortcoming does not, of course, lie in God; he can and will grant forgiveness and cleansing to those who turn from sin to Him.

The shortcoming lies with us. Yes, we can nominally ask for forgiveness of sin, but how can this request be real if we have not actually turned from away from sin, and we are even then expecting to sin again? If we, out of true love for God (the only real reason to do this), hate and are sorry for our sins (this must necessarily include a true resolve not to commit them again), and we turn in love to God for redemption, Jesus will absolve us of our sins. However, being creatures so thoroughly interwreathed with sin, this can be enormously difficult.

Well, are we doomed then? What can we do? Since He humbled Himself on Earth explicitly for this purpose, why didn’t God set up some more likely way for us to be redeemed, so that we could join him in Heaven, as He intended?

Well, He did. Not only can Jesus cast out evil, we, His true followers, can in the name of Jesus vie for each-other and cast out evil ourselves. We call this the Sacrament of Confession. An ordained minister can act in the person of Christ to supply what the penitent lacks, and in this way many more followers can receive the fruits of Christ’s sacrifice.

Hope this helped.

–Greg

You are forgiven by Jesus. There is no dichotomy between Christ’s work and the sacraments. The graces that flow through the sacraments are none other than those that flow from his holy Passion. So it does not make sense to say why do I need sacraments instead of Jesus when they are one in the same. It would be like saying why do I need the Bible instead of Jesus - when in reality, the Bible is God’s word and not in competition with Christ.

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