Question about Salvation and Jews


#1

I am a theologian and scholar form the midwest of the US and the only reason Iask this is I had a girl where her mother was Catholic and her Father Jewish and she want to know if her father is going to hell… what would be the best response to something like that?


#2

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

 -Pope John Paul II

Here’s a good discussion on it:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=54910&highlight=salvation


#3

Unless the father of that girl accepts Christ and becomes a Christian then he will go to Hell when he passes away. Christ said that no man comes to the Father except by Christ.


#4

quote: Louis Mazar

Unless the father of that girl accepts Christ and becomes a Christian then he will go to Hell when he passes away.

That is *not *what the Catholic Church teaches!!!
Check the catechism of the Catholic Church.

reen12


#5

[quote=Louis Mazar]Unless the father of that girl accepts Christ and becomes a Christian then he will go to Hell when he passes away. Christ said that no man comes to the Father except by Christ.
[/quote]

Not according to our Faith(The Roman Catholic Church) The church recognizes that God made a covenant with the Jews FOR ALL TIME. if you g back and read Genesis you will see there were no strings attached to this Covenant.


#6

[quote=theologian]I am a theologian and scholar form the midwest of the US and the only reason Iask this is I had a girl where her mother was Catholic and her Father Jewish and she want to know if her father is going to hell… what would be the best response to something like that?
[/quote]

With all due respect, if you are “a theologian and a scholar” shouldn’t you be telling us? And isn’t 20 years old rather young to be claiming those lofty titles? :slight_smile:


#7

[quote=estesbob]Not according to our Faith(The Roman Catholic Church) The church recognizes that God made a covenant with the Jews FOR ALL TIME. if you g back and read Genesis you will see there were no strings attached to this Covenant.
[/quote]

I am assuming that you are talking about Gen 12. That covenant was made with Abraham, and not with the Jews. The Jews also must believe in the Messiah that God sent them (Acts 4:12). If they reject Christ, He will reject them (Mt 10:33).

Bill


#8

[quote=estesbob]Not according to our Faith(The Roman Catholic Church) The church recognizes that God made a covenant with the Jews FOR ALL TIME. if you g back and read Genesis you will see there were no strings attached to this Covenant.
[/quote]

That is not Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through Christ, whether you are Jew or Gentile. They have to accept Christ just like the Gentiles.


#9

[quote=reen12]That is not what the Catholic Church teaches!!! Check the catechism of the Catholic Church.

reen12
[/quote]

It is, however, what the Scripture teaches:

Matthew 8:11-12
11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
12 *but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” *

In v11, the “many will come from east and west,” is speaking of Gentiles.

In v12, the “sons of the of the kingdom,” are the Jews who “will be cast out into the outer darkness.”

Bill


#10

“No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Let’s take a look at what this means. If it really means one absolutely must be a Christian to get into Heaven, then God has been damning the majority of the world to hell for 2,000 years. That means that God allowed the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust to endure lives of suffering only to suffer for eternity. That is a hateful, evil God…not the God of the bible. It would also mean that Ghandi, who showed that Christ’s teachings of non-violence can work in a modern world and helped to free his people from tyranny and oppression, went to hell for his efforts.

Two of my Lutheran friends and I discussed this verse (they both attend a Lutheran college and take theology classes and one is going to be a youth pastor in the Lutheran Church). We all agree that it cannot mean only Christians go to Heaven. What this verse is saying is that because of what Christ did for us, ie suffering and dying on the cross, we can go to Heaven. God is loving, not hateful, and to condem most of the world to an eternity of fire and suffering is not something He would do.
Or, this verse could even mean that it’s Jesus waiting at the gates instead of St. Peter, lol.


#11

[quote=sanpablo]“No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Let’s take a look at what this means. If it really means one absolutely must be a Christian to get into Heaven, then God has been damning the majority of the world to hell for 2,000 years. That means that God allowed the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust to endure lives of suffering only to suffer for eternity. That is a hateful, evil God…not the God of the bible. It would also mean that Ghandi, who showed that Christ’s teachings of non-violence can work in a modern world and helped to free his people from tyranny and oppression, went to hell for his efforts.

Two of my Lutheran friends and I discussed this verse (they both attend a Lutheran college and take theology classes and one is going to be a youth pastor in the Lutheran Church). We all agree that it cannot mean only Christians go to Heaven. What this verse is saying is that because of what Christ did for us, ie suffering and dying on the cross, we can go to Heaven. God is loving, not hateful, and to condem most of the world to an eternity of fire and suffering is not something He would do.
Or, this verse could even mean that it’s Jesus waiting at the gates instead of St. Peter, lol.
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn’t realize my brother was logged in…this was me.


#12

Who knows ultimatley who goes to hell as we cannot ultimatley make personal judgements but we can make categorical type judgements to the effect that if 1+2 = 3 then Salvation is greatly at risk.

Reen, you have decided after your investigatins to embrace the Jewish faith. Please read the early Church Fathers and the likes of St Paul, It is impossible for you to be invinvicibly ignorant as you have investigated this whole matter for a long time. Therefor if Catholicism/Christianity is true then you are at an extreme risk of going to hell.

If Judaism is correct, then the vast vast majority of Christians (myslef included)are hellbound.

Take for eg. contraception. If God does not think it is extremely important, then why include it. He can only include it if he thinks it is extrmelely important and if God thinks it is extremely important then it must be written on our hearts in natural law.

God cannot allow those who are not Christians to have easier access to heaven than Christians(assuming Christainity is correct), he cannot ask more of christians than he asks of non christians. If there is a line in the sand so to speak for obtaining salvation then it must be a lot easier for a christian than non christian to get to heaven, otherwise there is no value in being Christian and in many cases we would say it would be a disadvantage to be Christian.


#13

Hello, Tim,

quote: Tim Hayes

Reen, you have decided after your investigatins to embrace the Jewish faith. Please read the early Church Fathers and the likes of St Paul, It is impossible for you to be invinvicibly ignorant as you have investigated this whole matter for a long time. Therefor if Catholicism/Christianity is true then you are at an extreme risk of going to hell.

I do thank you for your words above.

Not only can I not plead invincible ignorance, I have

been reading St. Paul for 40 years, plus commentaries.

quote: Tim Hayes

If Judaism is correct, then the vast vast majority of Christians (myslef included)are hellbound.

Well, all I can tell you is that Judaism recognizes

a place in what it calls The World to Come for the

“righteous” of all nations. So, no, "the vast vast

majority of Christians…" are not at all ‘hellbound’.

torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=590

I’ve tried for 47 years [age 12, forward] to "fit"
myself into Christianity, to believe it.
For all I know, it may well* be* the reality.

If it is true, then I call to heart one of the images
Jesus gave us:

There I’ll be, entwined in some bushes, a
’lost sheep’, and I will hear a loving Voice say:
"Oh, there you are! " And I will ‘bleat’ my
thanksgiving.

In the meantime, I ask your prayers, Tim,

Maureen*


#14

Christ plainly taught that no man comes to the Father except by Christ and if anybody denies what Christ stated then they do not believe what Christ stated about who goes to Heaven when they pass away. The reason that Christ was crucified on the Cross was to save mankind from Hell and the only way to avoid Hell is by accepting that Christ is Savior and become a Christian. That is what the Bible plainly states.


#15

Hi, Louis Mazar,

quote, Louis Mazar

[font=Verdana]Christ plainly taught that no man comes to the Father except by Christ and if anybody denies what Christ stated then they do not believe what Christ stated about who goes to Heaven when they pass away. The reason that Christ was crucified on the Cross was to save mankind from Hell and the only way to avoid Hell is by accepting that Christ is Savior and become a Christian. That is what the Bible plainly states.

Thank you for calling this to mind.

I’ve chosen to focus on worshipping the God Whom
I’m certain exists…no doubts…and Who spoke to Israel.

If God isTriune, then I look to His mercy.

reen12[/font]


#16

reen,

Well I worship the Triune God also because I am Catholic. Don’t you believe what Christ stated that “No man comes to the Father except by me”? That plainly means that only Christians go to Heaven.


#17

Welcome to the site for the book Salvation is from the Jews by Roy Schoeman, published by Ignatius Press. Written by a Jewish entrant to the Catholic Church, it is an in-depth study of the role of Jews and Judaism in God’s plan for salvation from Abraham to the Second Coming.


#18

Hello, Louis Mazar

quote: Louis Mazar

Well I worship the Triune God also because I am Catholic.

Perhaps I was not clear in my statement:
quote: reen12

[font=Verdana]If God isTriune, then I look to His mercy.

quote: Louis Mazar

Don’t you believe what Christ stated that “No man comes to the Father except by me”? That plainly means that only Christians go to Heaven.

It may “plainly mean[s]” that to you, Mr. Mazar,
but it is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

quote: Louis Mazar

Don’t you believe what Christ stated that “No man comes to the Father except by me”?

I don’t know that Jesus is God Incarnate, so I pray to
the God I *know *is God…the God of Israel.

Be well, Louis Mazar,
reen12

[/font]


#19

[quote=theologian]I am a theologian and scholar form the midwest of the US and the only reason Iask this is I had a girl where her mother was Catholic and her Father Jewish and she want to know if her father is going to hell… what would be the best response to something like that?
[/quote]

A similar question was asked of me, and this was my response…

“***None of those aforementioned [Catholic] friends seemed to think that I, as a Protestant at the time, was damned.***”

They were correct, as nobody is damned until God judges them as such. God isn’t done with you yet. :wink: Nor is He done with me, I hope.

Yet, nobody can have absolute certainty that they will persevere in faith and attain heavenly glory while they are still living, apart from a direct private revelation from God to that effect. …

Whether one is Catholic or non-Catholic, it is only those who die finally impenitent in either original sin or mortal sin who will not attain eternal glory in the presence of God, according to Catholic theology. Said positively, those who attain eternal glory are only those who die in what Catholics call a “state of grace,” in a state of final repentance. The only unforgivable sin, then, is final impenitence.

Yet, just as Scripture teaches, some may commit grave sin yet be forgiven of it if in their sinfulness they suffered from ignorance of the true Divine will. For instance, as implied by Christ’s prayer from the cross, those who rejected Him and crucified Him had the potential to be forgiven by God, due to their ignorance, “for they know not what they are doing.”

To be clear, however, one cannot fake ignorance with God. If God is the one urging you, either directly through his grace, or through the deeds and actions of others especially His Holy Church, then one is bound to obey. Those who knowingly and willfully reject the truth will suffer just punishment for their disobedience, and certainly risk eternal damnation (see Heb 13:17).

According to the constant teaching of Christianity, expressly affirmed by the Council of Trent, original sin and any personal sins, if any, are remitted upon baptism or at least the implicit desire for baptism. Only those born again in baptism or its desire will attain eternal life. For example, Cornelius in Acts ch. 10 was sanctified by the Holy Spirit, not based upon an explicit acceptance of Christ, but based upon an implicit acceptance of Him, shown in the way Cornelius lived his life. The Holy Spirit poured out upon Cornelius and his family and friends prior to sacramental baptism by water. Yet, Peter “commanded” them to be baptized with water, sacramentally, just the same. Note the word in Scripture is translated “commanded,” indicating Peter’s authority in this matter.

Moreover, Catholicism teaches that for a sin to be mortal, three conditions are required: 1) grave matter, 2) full advertence, and 3) perfect consent of will. There’s such a thing as objective or material sin, as distinct from formal sin. One can be a material heretic, clinging to material heresy, suffering in ignorance of their sinfulness, yet having what the Catholic Church calls “good faith.” Heresy is a grave sin, but it is formal heresy that is specifically a mortal sin, and those who commit such a sin impenitently risk eternal damnation if they remain finally impenitent of this sin unto death. Yet, material heresy, although still a grave matter which can lead to mortal sin or lead others to mortal sin, is of itself a venial sin, as full advertence is necessary lacking. Those who reject the true deposit of faith, indeed risk eternal damnation. However, for those who do so in ignorance of the true faith, even those who cling to material heresy may be said to be separated from the Catholic Church in body, yet be united to the Catholic Church in soul.

Pope St. Pius X asserted:

“If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation” (Catechism of Pius X, The Ninth Article of the Creed)

St. Augustine too affirmed:

“When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark” (ibid., On Baptism, Against the Donatists, 5:28:39, AD 400).


#20

Moreover, Letter of the Holy Office, approved and promulgated by Pius XII (August 8, 1949)

… no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
… ***that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. ***

… this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. … the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire. … those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation… But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith…


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