Question about the divinity and Humanity of Christ


#1

I know Christ was fully human and fully devine. Waht I do not understand is what it was like when he was in childhood. Did he gave to study for things for in school and such?


#2

There are some apocryphal writings (Lost Books of the Bible) about the childhood of Jesus. However, the content is very questionable, so be careful when reading them. Many of them were originally written in Hebrew and translated to Latin by the Gnostics who made them out to say what they thought they should say. Some examples are:

The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
The Arabic Gospel of the Infancy of the Savior
The Gospel of Thomas

They can be found at the following link:

ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/ANF8-10.TXT


#3

[quote=Emly]I know Christ was fully human and fully devine. Waht I do not understand is what it was like when he was in childhood. Did he gave to study for things for in school and such?
[/quote]

Yes, Jesus learned things just as other children do. This was because he “hid” his divinity in his humanity in order to accomplish the Father’s will. As Paul wrote he did not consider his divinity something to be grasped but submitted himself to becoming a human being to become one of us so that we might share in his divine nature.


#4

Actually, I think there is some disagreement over this. Once, I was talking with my current priest. I said something along the lines that Jesus always knew He was God. I got told in no uncertain terms that saying that was heresy. Which I don’t really understand. Considering the things Jesus said, He had to have know He was. Like, the time when He was 12 and his parents found Him in the temple after a three day search. His replay was along the lines of, “Did you not know that I would be in my Father’s house doing my Father’s business?” Well, He couldn’t have been talking about Joseph, who was a carpenter.

Other than that, I believe He was raised by Mary and Joseph as any other jewish boy of those days would have been raised.


#5

Well, if you were able to pour your entire human consciousness into the body (and nature) of an ant, would it all fit? How much of your humanity could you–in your ant nature–call upon or express?

It’s just a mental exercise. No one can get into the consciousness of Christ except Christ.


#6

1- Jesus said he had no Divine Will:
Let us look at the following from the Bible:

Matthew 26:36-44

  1. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
  2. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
  3. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
  4. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
  5. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.
  6. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
  7. He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
  8. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
  9. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Very Important Note: The liars from the English translators should’ve wrote “…Yet not as I WISH, but as you WILL…”. This would’ve been the most proper and accurate translation by the polytheist trinitarian pagans who are dying to prove the lie about Jesus being the Creator of the Universe by any cost, even through lying and deceiving.

There are a number of alarming verses in the Bible that pass through the polytheist trinitarian christians without being noticed or pondered upon. Matthew 16:39 above raises a very serious red flag about Jesus being our so-called “Creator” and the whole lie of the polytheist trinity paganism religion. Jesus in the verse openly admitted that he basically had no Divine Will – that he is nothing without GOD Almighty – that he is just a creation from GOD Almighty.

This is by the way was not the first time Jesus openly admits this. There are several verses and situations where Jesus refuted the polytheist trinity pagan lie:

1- Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

2- John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I”

3- John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”

4- Matthew 24:36 Jesus said “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

5- Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:

Isaiah 11:1-3

"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

  1. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
    counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)–

  2. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
    decide by what he hears with his ears;"

**By the way, the Spirit of GOD Almighty came upon many in the Bible before and after Jesus.

6- Also, the “God” (hotheos) title that was given to Jesus was also given to many others before him and after him in the Bible. Ironically, even satan was called “hotheos” (God) in the New Testament. The only Unique Attribute for GOD Almighty that wasn’t given to anyone else beside GOD Almighty is “Yahweh”, which means “The Eternal”. Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/godtitle.htm to see the full proofs.**


#7

2- Jesus’ repetitive Prayers contradict him being called divine:

Let us look at the following from the Bible:

“Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed…(From the NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39)”

“So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:44)”

“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)”

“And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be HEARD FOR THEIR MUCH SPEAKING. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)”

Matthew 26:36-44

  1. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
  2. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
  3. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
  4. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
  5. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.
  6. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
  7. He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
  8. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
    **44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING. **

Jesus said “no vain repetitions” in Prayers. But how many times did Jesus pray over the same thing in such a small period of time? 3 times in Matthew 26:36-44, and endlessly in Luke 6:12. Let us again look at the following verse:

“One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)”

When Jesus prayed ENDLESSLY all night long in Luke 6:12, did he not repeat his prayers? His main focus was on GOD Almighty saving him from the crucifixion. Jesus’ prayers all night long, which obviously were far more than just 3 times, were repetition after repetition after repetition, compromising his very own commands about not doing “vain repetitions.”

It is really interesting that Jesus decided to bow down to Allah Almighty. This rare and not so usual practice in Christianity is something we Muslims do 5 times every single day. What Jesus did during his most desperate times in trying to glorify GOD Almighty in the best possible way he can to grab GOD Almighty’s attention and to show Him that he (Jesus) is giving Him (GOD) everything he can and is bringing himself in the lowest possible humility before Him, we Muslims simply do it 5 times every day without being desperate to glorify GOD Almighty.

Very Important Note: Practicing Muslims do ask GOD Almighty in Prayer when their faces are on the ground during the 5-daily prayers. I was taught that this is the best position to ask Allah Almighty in. My point is that what Jesus did during his most desperate times, we Muslims do it every single day! It seems to me that any practicing Muslim glorifies GOD far better than what Jesus in the Bible did and will ever do.

The incident of Jesus bowing to GOD Almighty in worship is often ignored by Trinitarian Christians. I am surprised that Trinitarian Christians don’t even have any problem with the seriousness of this incident. Let us look at few points here:


#8

1- When Jesus bowed down to GOD Almighty only during his desperate times and not in any other time, this tells us that Jesus did not worship GOD Almighty properly during his normal times, because he immediately compromised the normal way that he taught his followers:

“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)”

2- Jesus did not pray in secret to GOD Almighty. He prayed in a totally different and better way. Jesus contradicted his very own commands.

3- Jesus’ incident was simply telling GOD: GOD, I will not sit in my room and pray to you in secret as I commanded my followers. I will do even more to you. I will bow down to you and worship you in the maximum humility, and I pray that you save me from the pain that I am about to go through. This is my extra bonus prayer to you GOD! Please save me!!

Of course this unclassy and hypocritical standard that lacks dignity and respect to GOD Almighty by all means by the Jesus of the man-altered and corrupted bible is not accepted in Islam. You either pray to GOD Almighty consistently or you don’t. But to treat GOD Almighty like this is frankly in my opinion blasphemous, because you’re attempting to act smart with GOD Almighty and not be a true Servant.


#9

Let’s again go back to Matthew 16:39:

Matthew 26:36-44

  1. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
  2. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
  3. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
    **39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND PRAYED, “My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” **
  4. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.
  5. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
  6. He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
  7. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
  8. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.

We Muslims prostrated with our faces down to the ground to GOD Almighty at least a total of 17 times in the 5-daily sets of Prayers. We do it while we’re not desperate to seek GOD Almighty’s Mercy. Jesus on the other hand so hypocritically compromised again his “prayer rules” and he eventually found the BEST WAY to worship GOD Almighty! He found it during his most desperate times. No Prayer is better than putting your face down to the ground before THE LORD ALMIGHTY, your Creator, and make your wishes and Prayers to Him while your face is humbled down to the ground before HIM.

The fact that Jesus compromised even his rules of Praying and prostrated to GOD Almighty like we Muslims do ONLY PROVES that the Islamic way of Praying is indisputably THE BEST WAY, even according to Jesus himself (not that I as a Muslim require his approval)!!

It also proves beyond the shadow of the doubt that Jesus is NOT my Creator, because my Creator is THE ALMIGHTY GOD who doesn’t beg and cry and pray to anyone.


#10

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


#11

[quote=Daniel Marsh]Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
[/quote]

Good answer. I don’s see how you could answer Emly’s question clearer than that.


#12

[quote=Emly]I know Christ was fully human and fully devine. Waht I do not understand is what it was like when he was in childhood. Did he gave to study for things for in school and such?
[/quote]

[size=2][size=4][size=2]The knowledge Christ had through his Divine nature was infinitely perfect.

The knowledge Christ had through his human nature was not infinite.

Christ had three kinds of knowledge:

Celestial- His soul from the moment of it’s existence enjoyed, like the angels the immediate vision of God, and in that vision beheld all things past, present, and to come.

Infused- His soul was endowed with all that knowledge which God gave the angels at their creation.

Experimental- His soul had the ordinary knowledge which men obtain in everyday life from the use of their senses and reason.

However we must understand that all the knowledge so acquired was already in his possession.

Do not buy into the false idea that Christ did not know from eternity that He was God the second person of the Holy Trinity.
[/size][/size]

[/size]


#13

[quote=Br. Rich SFO][size=2][size=4][size=2]Do not buy into the false idea that Christ did not know from eternity that He was God the second person of the Holy Trinity.[/size][/size][/size]
[/quote]

I believe Jesus had faith that he was God, but I am unconvinced that he knew it with absolute certianty.

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
” ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’**("http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%204&version=31#fen-NIV-23216b")]"
7Jesus answered him, “It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'c]” Matthew 4:5-6

If Jesus knew for absolute certian he was the person spoken of in Psalm 91, it would not be possible for Jesus to put the Lord to the test. Matthew 4:5-6 would be nonsense.


#14

Christ was as human as any of us, this is the beauty of the incarnation. Even though Christ was God he was not “super human”, he ate, drank, became tired and slept like any other human. But in my opinion the only difference is that he was perfectly human, in that everything he did he did to the limits of human endurance, but no more.

The same can be said for his intellectual capabilities, as humans there is only so much our brains can handle. For example if you fill a cup from the ocean the contents are fully ocean, but they are not all the ocean.

The same applied to Christ, he was filled with God and was thus “fully God”, but to think that Christ could contain the full consciousness of the Godhead in a mere human body would take away from the splendor and perfection of the incarnation, as he would be more God than human, and this would go against Catholic doctrine.

So it only stands to reason that his knowledge of his nature and purpose would increase along with his mental capabilities, just as with normal human children.

Just remember that this issue has been the source of Christian division since the beginning, and was the cause of the separation of the early churches. So to avoid committing heresy I would look VERY carefully at the catechism.

I think I might do the same :smiley:


#15

[quote=levi86]Christ was as human as any of us, this is the beauty of the incarnation. Even though Christ was God he was not “super human”, he ate, drank, became tired and slept like any other human. But in my opinion the only difference is that he was perfectly human, in that everything he did he did to the limits of human endurance, but no more.

The same can be said for his intellectual capabilities, as humans there is only so much our brains can handle. For example if you fill a cup from the ocean the contents are fully ocean, but they are not all the ocean.

The same applied to Christ, he was filled with God and was thus “fully God”, but to think that Christ could contain the full consciousness of the Godhead in a mere human body would take away from the splendor and perfection of the incarnation, as he would be more God than human, and this would go against Catholic doctrine.

So it only stands to reason that his knowledge of his nature and purpose would increase along with his mental capabilities, just as with normal human children.

Just remember that this issue has been the source of Christian division since the beginning, and was the cause of the separation of the early churches. So to avoid committing heresy I would look VERY carefully at the catechism.

I think I might do the same :smiley:
[/quote]

Very insightful, levi86. I agree with you. That is my image of Jesus on Earth pretty much exactly. I describe my view is that Jesus was a divine person with a human nature.

I think the Catholicness of you post is quite questionable however.


#16

[quote=Angainor]Very insightful, levi86. I agree with you. That is my image of Jesus on Earth pretty much exactly. I describe my view is that Jesus was a divine person with a human nature.

I think the Catholicness of you post is quite questionable however.
[/quote]

im a convert and still goin through the RCIA, so perhaps my view isnt that of the church,

but could i ask why this opinion lacks “Catholicness”, just so i can improve :slight_smile:


#17

[quote=levi86]im a convert and still goin through the RCIA, so perhaps my view isnt that of the church,

but could i ask why this opinion lacks “Catholicness”, just so i can improve :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I think you are on the right track.

But… I’m not Catholic.


#18

[quote=Daniel Marsh]Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
[/quote]

I like to think that Luke here is writing from the perspective of Mary and in this passage we see Mary’s love for her Son and this would exemplify His growth in experiential knowlege, His humility to his mother, and His hidden divine nature out of respect and tenderness toward his mother to relate to her as a Son to a mother.

Just some thoughts.

peace


#19

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