Question about tubals?


#1

Hello all. I have a question about having a tubal. I will give a little history......

I was born and raised Baptist. (About to start RCIA classes in less than a month) I married a Catholic man 10 years ago and because I was Baptist I did not know much about his religon. Long story and I am working on understanding now. After my second child I was told by the doctor that it would be in my best health intrest if I had a tubal. My daughter was born at 24 weeks and I was daignosed with an incompetent cervix causing early birth. I now see that having the tubal is a sin BUT I really need help understanding this.

How could God ever want a child to suffer the way children whom are born prematurly suffer? I know that there are other ways to prevent pregnancy as I have read here, but what about women who are just not normal? I have PCOS and do not regulate nor ovulate regular and couldn't even begin to guess when I do. In my situation what SHOULD I have done? Please believe me when I say I WANT and NEED to understand this. I am in know way trying to argue.

I can tell you that way before becoming interested in the Catholic religon I regreted the tubal. With all my heart and soul. But what I regret is that my body isn't strong enough to carry a baby to term. I would love nothing more than to have another child but couldn't imagine having a child go through what my Maria did.

I appreciate how much the people on this forum has helped me so far. If it wasn't for finding this I truely believe I would have stayed aggervated and confused instead of looking for answers and understanding.


#2

Sorry about all the mis-spellings. The spell check will not work for me and spelling is not my strong point. :D


#3

I am going to let others answer the religious side of this issue, but I am curious as to why the doctor recommended a tubal, rather than a cerclage. I also have a preemie (29.5 weeks) so I see the posts on a preemie forum from other moms with IC having cerclages and getting closer to term on subsequent pregnancies. I can not answer first hand, since IC was not what caused prematurity for our daughter. However, not even considering, for a moment, the Church teachings on this, are you confident about the quality if the medical advice you were given? A tubel for IC seems extremely drastic.


#4

I hope to continue soon with the theological points (I'm sure someone will if I don't). I would like to start with this:

The regret you have is a positive thing. It is a part of repentance. Even though you have not yet been received into the Church, I encourage you to talk to the priest about your situation (he may not be willing to give you the Sacrament of Reconciliation yet, so you may have to bring it up again at that time).

You do NOT have to attempt a reversal (though you may prayerfully consider it with your priest). Some couples in such situations offer a week of abstaining from relations as though they were using NFP.


#5

Hi. we had a preemie as well, our last child. We shouldn't have any more. I use the Creighton method of NFP. It tracks fertility, but also health issues.

I have a few health issues. I don't have pcos, but I have a "tendency to form cysts" one ovary has a cyst with evidence of healed cysts.

First, don't dwell on the past, you can't change the past.

I've heard of the cerclage as well, but I had an abruption, so the cerclage wouldn't have helped.

How could God ever want a child to suffer the way children whom are born prematurly suffer?

That is a good question that I don't have the answer for. I remember looking at his little tiny body with tubes, and a vent and wondering why someone so innocent would have to go through that. For a while my baby was the earliest in the NICU, until a 24 week little girl came, and needed his issolette.

What would we do if I became pregnant? Well, first I'd love the baby incredibly, but I would really worry about if he came early as well, or even earlier that he wouldn't be viable.

How is baby now? I hope she is doing well.


#6

[quote="Z1Z2, post:3, topic:252704"]
I am going to let others answer the religious side of this issue, but I am curious as to why the doctor recommended a tubal, rather than a cerclage. I also have a preemie (29.5 weeks) so I see the posts on a preemie forum from other moms with IC having cerclages and getting closer to term on subsequent pregnancies. I can not answer first hand, since IC was not what caused prematurity for our daughter. However, not even considering, for a moment, the Church teachings on this, are you confident about the quality if the medical advice you were given? A tubel for IC seems extremely drastic.

[/quote]

As I mentioned before I got pregnante once again after my daughter. I did have a cercloge with him. You have to wait until you make a certian amount of weeks before they will do the cercloge. And even then it is still not 100 % that it will keep one from going into labor. Not only that, but it is something you have to have ansethesia for to have it inserted (although not to have it tooken out). We all know the side affect of ansethesia and they are greater to the unborn child. Too many what ifs. I understand some might not understand BUT to me a "what if" was too big of a risk to take when it comes to a child. I understand in your opinion that a tubal for a IC is drastic, but taking a risk of having another child born at 24 weeks, weighing 1 pd 6 and a half oz, with a grade 5 bleed in the right side of her brain. grade 4 in the left side, on a ventaltor for 4 months, in the hospital for 5 months, losing her hearing at the age of 3 months, diagnosed with CP at 2 years and much much more IS very drastic to me. I don't regret my Angel in the least. I love that child more than words can say. I truely believe God loved me enough to bless me with her, but SHE is the one suffering and if I could prevent that from happening again then I feel like I should.


#7

[quote="SonCatcher, post:4, topic:252704"]
I hope to continue soon with the theological points (I'm sure someone will if I don't). I would like to start with this:

The regret you have is a positive thing. It is a part of repentance. Even though you have not yet been received into the Church, I encourage you to talk to the priest about your situation (he may not be willing to give you the Sacrament of Reconciliation yet, so you may have to bring it up again at that time).

You do NOT have to attempt a reversal (though you may prayerfully consider it with your priest). Some couples in such situations offer a week of abstaining from relations as though they were using NFP.

[/quote]

Thank you. I might give that a try. I just feel akward asking for advise from a Catholic Preist right now. Its hard to explain. Like I am not welocmed because I am questioning the religon. You know? I'm only questioning because I really have a tugging at my heart pulling me towards the Catholic church.


#8

[quote="Mary_Gail_36, post:5, topic:252704"]
Hi. we had a preemie as well, our last child. We shouldn't have any more. I use the Creighton method of NFP. It tracks fertility, but also health issues.

I have a few health issues. I don't have pcos, but I have a "tendency to form cysts" one ovary has a cyst with evidence of healed cysts.

First, don't dwell on the past, you can't change the past.

I've heard of the cerclage as well, but I had an abruption, so the cerclage wouldn't have helped.

That is a good question that I don't have the answer for. I remember looking at his little tiny body with tubes, and a vent and wondering why someone so innocent would have to go through that. For a while my baby was the earliest in the NICU, until a 24 week little girl came, and needed his issolette.

What would we do if I became pregnant? Well, first I'd love the baby incredibly, but I would really worry about if he came early as well, or even earlier that he wouldn't be viable.

How is baby now? I hope she is doing well.

[/quote]

Hello! Thank you for your response and I am sorry about your issue. My Maria is doing great. I am amazed by her strength every single day. She is 11 now and the CP only affects her muscles. She walks with a walker and is able to take steps around the house holding onto things. She was diagnosed Deaf, but with the wrong diagnosis. After 7 years and moving to a bigger city with better health care she was diagnosed right and was able to have Choclear Implants and she can hear very well now. I'm still unsure what she hears, but she turns to most sounds and has many more understandable words. She is so smart and loves everyone. She is very small!!!! And the doctors said she always will be. BUT huge blessings come in small packages. I was VERY young when I started my family. The truth is charting and listening to my body never crossed my mind. And even if it did I still wouldn't know where to start. I regulate once to twice a year at the most. I've tried charting for 2 years straight....times, dates, temps, how I was feeling ect....just to try to get to know my body and there is no pattern. I could not pin point ovulation at all. I think if I do ovualate I have no signs of it. My doctor suggested ovualtion kits, but seeing I do not regulate I would have to do them for a year straight. Loads of money!!!!!

How is your baby doing? If you dont mind me asking?


#9

Hi Casey, my son is two and is doing very well, he's very fortunate. He was born at 28 weeks, so about 4 more weeks than your little girl.

His size was good, 2 -13, but he went down to a little over 2 because he had sepsis. Thank you for asking. :)

Take care.


#10

[quote="caseyb27, post:8, topic:252704"]
Hello! Thank you for your response and I am sorry about your issue. My Maria is doing great. I am amazed by her strength every single day. She is 11 now and the CP only affects her muscles. She walks with a walker and is able to take steps around the house holding onto things. She was diagnosed Deaf, but with the wrong diagnosis. After 7 years and moving to a bigger city with better health care she was diagnosed right and was able to have Choclear Implants and she can hear very well now. I'm still unsure what she hears, but she turns to most sounds and has many more understandable words. She is so smart and loves everyone. She is very small!!!! And the doctors said she always will be. BUT huge blessings come in small packages. I was VERY young when I started my family. The truth is charting and listening to my body never crossed my mind. And even if it did I still wouldn't know where to start. I regulate once to twice a year at the most. I've tried charting for 2 years straight....times, dates, temps, how I was feeling ect....just to try to get to know my body and there is no pattern. I could not pin point ovulation at all. I think if I do ovualate I have no signs of it. My doctor suggested ovualtion kits, but seeing I do not regulate I would have to do them for a year straight. Loads of money!!!!!

How is your baby doing? If you dont mind me asking?

[/quote]

Have you taken an actual NFP course? There are various forms of NFP and training. If you haven't taken a class, you might, just for your info. STM and Creighton can show various health issues. Creighton, inparticular, has ways to help PCOS and medical issues. There are answers for many women who have truly irregular cycles.

ccli.org Sympto-thermal method--basal temps, mucous, cervix position
nfpandmore.com another stm site

boma-usa.org Billings--mucous only
woomb.org/

creightonmodel.com Creighton method--medical model mucous only

nfp.marquette.edu/ Marquette--various fertility symptoms with fertility monitor

To answer at least one of your questions.....God doesn't WANT anyone to suffer. It's a result of our fallen world. It is a shame that little ones do suffer, but it's miracle that such premies are even alive today.


#11

You mentioned something about not being comfortable asking your priest about certain things - feeling like you're questioning the religion. Put that right out of your head! In my experience, priests have been GLAD to have the opportunity to explain the faith. Church is a place for questions and answers. I would guess that your priest would love to explain things for you. Good luck!


#12

Casey,

Firstly, Charla is correct that most priests are more than happy to explain the faith. They are trained to be nonjudgmental (so as to encourage people to go to Confession).

I will now try to give a theological response to some of your comments. I am mainly thinking it out and putting my thoughts down. Hopefully you will find some benefit to them.

"what I regret is that my body isn't strong enough to carry a baby to term."

"...child born at 24 weeks, weighing 1 pd 6 and a half oz, with a grade 5 bleed in the right side of her brain. grade 4 in the left side, on a ventaltor for 4 months, in the hospital for 5 months, losing her hearing at the age of 3 months, diagnosed with CP at 2 years... SHE is the one suffering"

You both are suffering. Maria's suffering is due to the physical problems associated with her premature birth. Yours is due the physical problems in your own body and in watching one you love so dearly suffer for no apparent reason.

This is the "problem of pain." How can a good and just God allow the innocent to suffer so much?

The simplest theological answer is that suffering is a product of the Fall. When Man fell, all of nature fell with him, introducing pain and suffering.

I realize there must not be much comfort in this explanation. Mary Gail is doing much better in the comfort department.

"I don't regret my Angel in the least. I love that child more than words can say. I truely believe God loved me enough to bless me with her"

Yes, this is indeed why you suffer so much in seeing her. In a certain sense, you have insight others lack. Everyone has suffering but not everyone's is visible. You and others see Maria's crippled body and have compassion for her. That makes you love her all the more.

God alone can look into our hearts and see where we are deaf and crippled. He was moved to send His Son to share in our suffering. We can now bind up our suffering in His. Fr. Vincent Serpa in the "Ask an Apologist" forum occasionally includes a reflection on the Lord's suffering in his responses (here's one). It might benefit you to read it.

I will try to answer your original question in my next post.


#13

[quote="Mary_Gail_36, post:9, topic:252704"]
[Hi Casey, my son is two and is doing very well, he's very fortunate. He was born at 28 weeks, so about 4 more weeks than your little girl.

His size was good, 2 -13, but he went down to a little over 2 because he had sepsis. Thank you for asking. :)

Take care.

[/quote]

So happy to read this!!! Maria had a huge set back at 3 months, but our babies are fighters. Thank God.
[/quote]


#14

[quote="Jennifer_J, post:10, topic:252704"]
Have you taken an actual NFP course? There are various forms of NFP and training. If you haven't taken a class, you might, just for your info. STM and Creighton can show various health issues. Creighton, inparticular, has ways to help PCOS and medical issues. There are answers for many women who have truly irregular cycles.

ccli.org Sympto-thermal method--basal temps, mucous, cervix position
nfpandmore.com another stm site

boma-usa.org Billings--mucous only
woomb.org/

creightonmodel.com Creighton method--medical model mucous only

nfp.marquette.edu/ Marquette--various fertility symptoms with fertility monitor

To answer at least one of your questions.....God doesn't WANT anyone to suffer. It's a result of our fallen world. It is a shame that little ones do suffer, but it's miracle that such premies are even alive today.

[/quote]

I first heard of NFP when I started looking into tubals being a sin. I am not Catholic and growing up in a Baptist Church was not taught that it was wrong. I never questioned my religion until recent. And being very interested in the Catholic religion is why I am trying to understand. Which I must say....after posting this and going off what some say and doing more research I understand it 99 percent and feel as if not only did I make a mistake but I wish I could take it back. I can see how NFP would work for me and how if I took all possible precations and ended up with another child then that would have been God's work. I was raised to believe it was completly fine. Now I see even some branches of Baptist are against it. Just not my Church.

I still suffer with understanding WHY Maria or anychild would be allowed to have to go through so much pain. For YEARS after she was born I took the stance that (please forgive me) there was no possible way there was a God. No one so Holy would ever LET a child be born this way. To be in so much pain. I now feel like I am very blessed, but still find it hard to understand WHY if He could have stopped it then why didn't He. Or what could I have done so wrong to deserve having to watch her hurt so much and not be able to stop it. To feel like it was my fault because I couldn't be strong enough to carry her to term. I working on all that now and I feel like maybe she was born this way to make me, her and my whole family stronger. I was married at 16. I am American and he is Mexican. I had my second child by 16. The statistics were against us and I know in my heart and soul that if we didn't go through that then we would not be together today (I gave up on religion for a long while after she was born). She made us so much stronger. Just the physical suffering she had to go through makes it hard to believe that 100 percent. I would have and still do anything if I could take all of it from her.

Thank you for your response. I am here to learn. I need to learn. I need Him now more than ever and these past 6months I feel like I am getting closer to Him.


#15

[quote="Charla80, post:11, topic:252704"]
You mentioned something about not being comfortable asking your priest about certain things - feeling like you're questioning the religion. Put that right out of your head! In my experience, priests have been GLAD to have the opportunity to explain the faith. Church is a place for questions and answers. I would guess that your priest would love to explain things for you. Good luck!

[/quote]

Thank you! The only reason I feel that way is because He/Him is not "my" priest. I am not Catholic. I am a long lost Bpatist looking to find my way back and am being pulled torward the Catholic faith.


#16

[quote="SonCatcher, post:12, topic:252704"]
Casey,

Firstly, Charla is correct that most priests are more than happy to explain the faith. They are trained to be nonjudgmental (so as to encourage people to go to Confession).

I will now try to give a theological response to some of your comments. I am mainly thinking it out and putting my thoughts down. Hopefully you will find some benefit to them.

You both are suffering. Maria's suffering is due to the physical problems associated with her premature birth. Yours is due the physical problems in your own body and in watching one you love so dearly suffer for no apparent reason.

This is the "problem of pain." How can a good and just God allow the innocent to suffer so much?

The simplest theological answer is that suffering is a product of the Fall. When Man fell, all of nature fell with him, introducing pain and suffering.

I realize there must not be much comfort in this explanation. Mary Gail is doing much better in the comfort department.

Yes, this is indeed why you suffer so much in seeing her. In a certain sense, you have insight others lack. Everyone has suffering but not everyone's is visible. You and others see Maria's crippled body and have compassion for her. That makes you love her all the more.

God alone can look into our hearts and see where we are deaf and crippled. He was moved to send His Son to share in our suffering. We can now bind up our suffering in His. Fr. Vincent Serpa in the "Ask an Apologist" forum occasionally includes a reflection on the Lord's suffering in his responses (here's one). It might benefit you to read it.

I will try to answer your original question in my next post.

[/quote]

Thank you too!!!! You are right. I am suffering. In a way that I have never suffered before. And believe me when I tell you my childhood is one to hide. But suffering I can handle. Any day. Seeing her suffer is what kills me inside. I can't explain the pain I have seeing her struggle to walk while murderers, child abusers and so on have no problems and many run free. I believe they will face their judgement but they will deserve it. She didn't. Sometimes I think that this all happened because I was not married when I concieved her. But I am not blind to see that even the greatest Christian people suffer the same and even worse. Looking for the why is torture. I appreciate you trying to comfort me. But in 11 years I have found no comfort so I hide it. Put it in the back of my head and forget it for a while. Until it all comes crashing out. I'll have a good cry, pitty party with anything sweet in the pantry and start hiding again the next day. Wrong I know. But its all that works right now. I have NO right to complain, cry or say I am suffering when a 11 year old child has NEVER once asked my why she is different. Or cried because all the children around her can walk, talk, learn and hear but she can't. So I feel "less than" right now complaining of my pain.

I really like your "everyone has suffering". That helps more than you could know. Not because I like that people suffer because Lord knows I don't. But it helps me to not forget that we could have it much worse and to be thankful for what we have. I thank God many times a day that He built her so strong. So beautiful and so loving. I once said "Maria has a army behind her" and that she does. She has so many people who love her and admire her. I have had many people tell me how she gives them strength and how she has changed their lives. As she has mine.


#17

[quote="caseyb27, post:14, topic:252704"]
... I feel like maybe she was born this way to make me, her and my whole family stronger. I was married at 16. I am American and he is Mexican. I had my second child by 16. The statistics were against us and I know in my heart and soul that if we didn't go through that then we would not be together today (I gave up on religion for a long while after she was born). She made us so much stronger... I need Him now more than ever and these past 6months I feel like I am getting closer to Him.

[/quote]

It looks like you already are finding meaning in suffering. Sometimes it is the only way God can get our attention.

I would have and still do anything if I could take all of it from her.

Wouldn't we all.


#18

Casey,

Did you need a response about why a tubal is disordered or was this thread mainly about suffering? (in your case, due to your fear and ignorance at the time, it was probably not a sin, however.)

EDIT:
To be a sin, all the following must apply:
[LIST=1]
*]It must be a serious matter (it is)
*]You must be aware that it is a serious matter (from what you have written so far, it looks like you were unaware at the time)
*]You must have full consent of the will (doubtful due to fear and pain you were going through at the time)
[/LIST]


#19

[quote="SonCatcher, post:18, topic:252704"]
Casey,

Did you need a response about why a tubal is disordered or was this thread mainly about suffering? (in your case, due to your fear and ignorance at the time, it was probably not a sin, however.)

EDIT:
To be a sin, all the following must apply:
[LIST=1]
*]It must be a serious matter (it is)
*]You must be aware that it is a serious matter (from what you have written so far, it looks like you were unaware at the time)
*]You must have full consent of the will (doubtful due to fear and pain you were going through at the time)
[/LIST]

[/quote]

This is exactly what I came here for! I got off subject (normal for me) often. It seems like the more I learn, the more questions pop up. I love this forum. Everyone has been so nice and I feel welcomed. The opposite of what I was taught to believe of Catholics. Thank you so much. The religon becomes more appealing everyday.


#20

[quote="caseyb27, post:19, topic:252704"]
This is exactly what I came here for! I got off subject (normal for me) often. It seems like the more I learn, the more questions pop up. I love this forum. Everyone has been so nice and I feel welcomed. The opposite of what I was taught to believe of Catholics. Thank you so much. The religon becomes more appealing everyday.

[/quote]

Very well. I understand that many people find the need for one answer lessens when other issues are addressed. I didn't want to heap too much different information on you too quickly as it can get overwhelming. The following is my basic thought concerning contraception and sterilization. I hope that it helps.

I am sure you will remember that God is the Creator and Author of Life. It is He and He alone who gives life. It is He and He alone who has right to take it. We, for our part, are called to be stewards of the life God has given us and ministers to those He places around us. Our ministry includes spouse and children. Our stewardship includes responsible use of the sexual powers He has given us.

Sterilization, by its action, is a refusal of the sexual power God has entrusted to our stewardship even if it is thought to be a type of responsibility. Other forms of contraception are similar refusals. But the refusal of the sexual procreative power is not limited to itself. Since it is God's right to create and take life, it is also a refusal to Him. He acts at His pleasure, not ours.

My wife and I recently experienced both sides of God's right over life. We conceived our third child in June. In July, Michael was miscarried and we had to lay him to rest. Why did God create this child only to take him to Himself so soon afterward? I don't know. I only know it is His right. He created and He took life. I thank Him for the privilege of bringing new life into the world. I rest in Him for the sorrow of losing a loved one.


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