Thank you AINg for that response. I hope drac16 will be kind enough to share his interpretation of those verses with us.
It shows that faith must be active to be a saving faith. Works do not save, grace does, through faith, but faith must be as described in Matthew 25
Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident :for ,The just shall live by faith ". Previously verse 10 tells us that whoever is under the law is cursed . For if you do not continue completely and perfectly in the works of the law then you are cursed. God demands perfect holiness. Works can only serve as a fruit of faith . They have nothing to do with justification. The most dangerous doctrine that Rome presents is the rejection of the complete and sufficient work of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. I want to address Matthew 25 too. Jesus has just received 3 questions in this account from the disciples , when will the temple come down?What’s the sign of his coming , and what is the sign of the end of the world . Matthew 25 is Christ answering the question about the end of the world . Note that these are parables and Christ is addressing the disciples . Not non believers so we all should listen closely . Repeatedly we are warned to be watchful through this chapter. This text really warns us that there are sheep and goats . One of the ways they will be discerned is their care and love for their brethren. And we will see the goats clearly through their lack of care. To use this text as an example of works being necessary to salvation is to misunderstand it . It’s fine to say that a genuine faith will be seen through works . However to suggest that salvation can be contributed to in anyway by pleasing God in and of ourselves is not founded in this text .Lastly, look at chapter 26, verses 6-13 give us an example of a sheep . This woman who sees Christ as precious and pours an extremely expensive ointment on his head in preparation for his burial is a prime example of a true sheep. Verses 14-16 record Judas accepting money and conspiring against Christ. He clearly is an illustration of a goat. Christ mentions nothing about salvation nor does Matthew. Salvation is the provision of God and man can doing nothing to "cooperate " ,assist, help , alleviate , encourage. Just ask your self this. How does God view my good works ? Does he view them as something that can help my salvation? Maybe he looks pleasantly on them and makes you a sheep ? Isaiah 64:6 “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.”
I think it’s saying that good works will necessarily follow once a person gets saved. Once you’re born again, those good works, like visiting the sick and so forth, will follow. Those good deeds are the result of a person’s salvation-- not that they are doing those things to get saved.
I assure you a lot of praying is involved. I think custer shot straight to the heart of it.
Familial bonds are hard to break.
The child inside of me wants to just run towards the Catholic church, but the adult in me says make for certain this is where you’re being called.
You can judge a tree by the fruit that it bears yes?
Works are the fruit of salvation not the root debate. If faith produces good works then why would non believers also produce good works? The laws of God are written on our hearts to begin with.
If works is God working through is then where does our free will come in to play? If we accept Jesus into our hearts and become his puppets, then why would be judged according to our works?
What about 2 Corinthians 3:15?
"If faith produces good works then why would non believers also produce good works? ". Now we have to think what are good works ? Specifically what makes the goats different than the sheep? No doubt both have done "good " things . Non believers of course look out for their families and have done many commendable things . However think about this verse Amos 5:21, where God condemns the Israelites in their worship of him . "I hate ,I despise your religious festivals your religious assembles are a stench to me ". Here we find God condemning the Israelites very worship ! Are the Israelites not doing a very good thing ? Why does God have problems with such a good work as worship ? God doesn’t just view an act Or work as we may. He knows the motive, reason and purpose to which someone is doing something . The Israelites were making pretence of having God on their side. They proclaimed his name and did many good things in his name .However, there hearts were far from him . We are corrupt and in our flesh dwells no good thing. Romans 7:18. Even a non believers very best act done is coming from a corrupt person who is at enmity against God. We may see that deed as very nice however God sees the reality of it and the corrupt fountain that it came from . Summed up , we must first be reconciled to God . It must be his work of salvation that renews us and transforms us then God will see Christ’s righteousness as our righteousness. No longer will we be serving God in our currupt flesh that cannot please God. Instead we will serve him in the Spirit and our works are the result of his work of salvation. The sheep serve Christ with new natures and the goats are in the flesh and cannot please God.
This has been Jon’s issue ever since I encountered him here.
I think it is a residual of how he views the universal jurisdiction as being anti-Christ.
[quote=“Jill, post:19, topic:470141, full:true”]
The papacy of course goes right along with the traditions of men.
But keeping in with the theme of the original post. There are a lot more issues than just the obvious. Your crucifixes depict Jesus still on the cross. I was taught that he is no longer on the cross, he is risen. He should not still be depicted on the cross. He triumphed the grave.
Maybe this will help explain by Jesus is still depicted on the Cross…http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/apologetics/two_minute#5
One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?
While not all of these are my view points it’s just some of what Ive seen and been exposed to. I can see the appeal for sure although that is not the home Christ is pointing me to.
I just ran across this book…https://www.amazon.com/Questions-Protestants-Anniversary-Protestant-Reformation/dp/1942190344
Author was on the Coming Home Network recently as a guest.
All this time and you still seem to not understand the point of that.
Any doctrine or teaching that is not consistent with the teachings of Christ and the early Church can be said to be opposed to Christ. I believe the Calvinist TULIP is, by and large, opposed to Christ.
There is nothing “residual “ in that view, nor is that anything near saying the pope is some sort of end-times beast.
I agree with this. Jon was LCMS (Confessional Lutheran) before he converted which he has stated on the board, and the LCMS does still teach in the Book of Concord, ThePpope is the Antichrist, now intrepreted to mean he "sit in the seat of the Antichrist., If I understand correctly.
With that belief indoctrinated in you for years, universal jurisdiction of the Pope would probably be adverse and repugnant to you.
What’s truly interesting is that charge was never part of my catechetical training, never even once mentioned in church or worship. It was never part of my religion classes in college. It seems I was “indoctrinated” by never hearing it.
About 10 years ago, one of the first three threads I authored here at CAF was a proposal to the Lutheran members of the time that the term should be dropped because of the American evangelical definition that has taken over the term.
But that said, you have the order reversed. The reformers did not think that, since the office was anti-Christ that universal jurisdiction must be wrong. They thought that, because universal jurisdiction is wrong, the basis of the office was anti-Christ.
Now,with permission from you and Pablope, I will put my own words in my mouth. Universal jurisdiction, in my view has no basis in scripture or the early Church. Therefore, I believe that the Bishop of Rome has jurisdiction where other bishops remain in communion with him.
Inertia is the best reason I can think of. I would need to learn so much more about Catholicism to switch but I find substantal doctrinal agreement on the most important concepts from a 10,000 foot view.
Having been exposed to virtually no Catholic doctrine for my first 49 years on this planet, I don’t see what all the fuss is about for so many. I find a certain logic that appeals to my need for order. In fact, that was a problem for me going back to my teens, really. Who’s right? Clearly, it is the Southern Baptists (the denomination I was raised in) but what about a few- not all- of the others:
Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Baptist Bible Fellowship International,
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Central Baptist Association
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Enterprise Association of Regular Baptists
Free Will Baptist
Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists
Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Mainstream Baptist Network
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
North American Baptist Conference
Old Regular Baptist
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Original Free Will Baptist Convention
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference
Southwide Baptist Fellowship
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Fellowship
Worldwide Baptist New Testament Missions
And that doesn’t include all the flavors of Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcipals, and on and on and on. Going back to the question I used to ask when I was 16, “who’s right?” It’s difficult to fathom that Jesus had this scale of division in mind when Luther nailed his new traditions on the door…
Why do you think the Baptists have anything to do with Luther, except maybe the Baptists who believe in infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, “one baptism for the remission of sins”, the real presence in the Lords Supper, private confession, and confirmation?
The Baptists that I grew up with would see Luther as in error, along with most of the other denominations. My point was that the many permutations of Protestantism from which the Baptists sprang ultimately go back to Luther’s protest.
Motley are the Baptists. But, as you are saying, not that motley.
More likely from the Zwingli/ Reformed Reformation than the Lutheran. And yes, they are/ we’re teo different movements.
I suspect less so than Anglicans.
I’m finding out.
No. Luther is not the source for Baptist theology, no matter how much some Baptists might like to claim him as their own forerunner. Luther himself likely would’ve condemned many modern Baptist practices as ‘Anabaptist,’ even though many Baptists would deny the connection (Baptists theology is motley with messy history). But probably just as many Baptists would say they are connected to the Anabaptists (especially the “Trail of Blood” crowd).
The Lutheran Confessions blast Anabaptists more than they do Rome, and Lutherans and Catholics used to pause their fighting in the Thirty Years’ War just to hunt Anabaptists! Lutherans have always been quite separate from Baptists.