Question on Assured Salvatoin?


#1

Let’s examine Peter Bar Jona. He had faith for Jesus says of his faith in Matt 16:18, AFTER HE proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven. Okay here is the problem:

Peter denied our Lord THREE TIMES.

Jesus said:

Matt 10
32: So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
33: but whoever** denies **me before men, I also will **deny **before my Father who is in heaven.

Now how many times would Peter have had to deny our Lord before this verse kicked in. I think it likely that if someone near that fire would have handed Peter a bible tract “Are you Saved” he would have spit on it and thrown it in the mud.

Fortunately for Peter Jesus provided the words of scripture and the cock crowed bringing him to tears at his own hard heartedness and Jesus cast his merciful eyes upon him knowing his true repentence. Thus grace brought him back from spiritual death.

Blessings
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#2

And the question is???:confused: (Honest, I am not being sarcastic. I have read what you have written. What is your question??)


#3

[quote=thessalonian]Let’s examine Peter Bar Jona. He had faith for Jesus says of his faith in Matt 16:18, AFTER HE proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven. Okay here is the problem:

Peter denied our Lord THREE TIMES.

Jesus said:

Matt 10
32: So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
33: but whoever** denies **me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Now how many times would Peter have had to deny our Lord before this verse kicked in. I think it likely that if someone near that fire would have handed Peter a bible tract “Are you Saved” he would have spit on it and thrown it in the mud.

Fortunately for Peter Jesus provided the words of scripture and the cock crowed bringing him to tears at his own hard heartedness and Jesus cast his merciful eyes upon him knowing his true repentence. Thus grace brought him back from spiritual death.

Blessings
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[/quote]

And this related to assured Salvation how??? Thanks and God Bless.


#4

You want assured salvation?

Acknowledge Christ.

Observe His Law.

Avail yourself of the means He left us. Through the Sacraments.

And don’t fool yourself into thinking that Salvation cannot be lost.

God Bless


#5

From Peter’s expression of faith “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” He had faith. If his salvation was assured in Matt 16:18, it is quite apparent that he had a fall from grace at the crusifixion. Therefore one can fall from grace just as the scriptures say.

Gal 5

4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Peter did. It was fortunate for him to be restored to grace by Christ.

Now if a OSAS type has an answer for this I’d like to see it. So far when I’ve asked the questoin none have come close to answering it sufficiently and the answers have been conflicting.

Blessigs


#6

Alistar Begg, a Protestant I sometimes hear on the radio this morning spoke of a man who he met that had come to Christ. This man started attending a church and made friends. His friends started getting married but he wasn’t ready to yet so he decided to invite this girl in to live with him. Mr. Begg met this man while he was still living with this girl. The man admitted that he knew his relationship was wrong from the start. After a conversation with Mr. Begg he decided to break the living arrangement off. Praise God for that. But here is the kicker. The man said I now see how much God loves me and how lucky I am that he brought me to this point. Mr. Begg said, ya, your lucky, he could have chosen to have a roof fall on your head and bring you in to heaven like a shipwrecked sailor. ??:confused: . You can blantly and knowingly disregard God’s law and go to heaven?

Thess


#7

Let me give you the three answers I have heard so far.

  1. Salvation wasn’t by faith alone before Christ died (which kinda makes a mockery of the verse that says “abraham was saved by faith”.
  2. Peter really didn’t mean it. To which I say how many more times would he have had to deny Christ.
  3. The verse about Christ denying men before the father wasn’t for believers. Basically one who has accepted Christ as his PLS can deny him all he wants and still is on the road to heaven. Kind of a lower law I would call it. But I thought Luke 12 indicated that we are called to a higher law. “to the one who knew he will be treated as an unbeliver.” Also Matt 5 “you have heard it said …but I say…”

Let’s see if that gets the discussion going.


#8

bump


#9

[quote=thessalonian]bump
[/quote]

How about when Jesus called Peter Satan? How does OSAS fit that?


#10

I once believed in the OSAS bit. But I have learned differently. Yes, Peter denied the Lord. And, and that precise moment in time, he meant it. But, if you read that story a bit further, you find Peter weeping over what he had done. Later, aftere the resurrection, Jesus “renewed” Peter’s conviction. Remember at the bonfire on the beach? Jesus asked Peter THREE TIMES “do you love me?” When Peter responded, Jesus told him, “Feed my sheep,” “tend my sheep.”

Yes, Peter had sinned. Once we come to Christ, that doesn’t stop us from sinning. We will continue to do so as long as we are in this life. The only remedy is to turn to Christ each time and confess our sins, our failures, and anything else that can draw us away from Christ.


#11

[quote=thessalonian]Let’s examine Peter Bar Jona. He had faith for Jesus says of his faith in Matt 16:18, AFTER HE proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah, "flesh and blood hath not revealed this to you but my father who is in heaven. Okay here is the problem:

Peter denied our Lord THREE TIMES.

Jesus said:

Matt 10
32: So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
33: but whoever** denies **me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Now how many times would Peter have had to deny our Lord before this verse kicked in.
[/quote]

I think if OSAS is true… :smiley: Peter could have continued to deny Jesus for the rest of his life… and still be saved.

[quote=]I think it likely that if someone near that fire would have handed Peter a bible tract “Are you Saved” he would have spit on it and thrown it in the mud.

Fortunately for Peter Jesus provided the words of scripture and the cock crowed bringing him to tears at his own hard heartedness and Jesus cast his merciful eyes upon him knowing his true repentence. Thus grace brought him back from spiritual death.

Blessings
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[/quote]

Yes…If that happened…it is also possible that an unsuspecting hippie came along two days later, picked up the dry tract…became “saved by a muddy tract” handed down by the Apostle Peter…in that"famous moment" and started a parallel religion that dates back to the time of Christ !

WOW ! …think of the possibilities ! :smiley:
There must be some scripture that “implies” that .


#12

[quote=Christy Beth]I once believed in the OSAS bit. But I have learned differently. Yes, Peter denied the Lord. And, and that precise moment in time, he meant it. But, if you read that story a bit further, you find Peter weeping over what he had done. Later, aftere the resurrection, Jesus “renewed” Peter’s conviction. Remember at the bonfire on the beach? Jesus asked Peter THREE TIMES “do you love me?” When Peter responded, Jesus told him, “Feed my sheep,” “tend my sheep.”

Yes, Peter had sinned. Once we come to Christ, that doesn’t stop us from sinning. We will continue to do so as long as we are in this life. The only remedy is to turn to Christ each time and confess our sins, our failures, and anything else that can draw us away from Christ.
[/quote]

You must not have read my whole post. Yes Peter repented by the grace of God. The question is the state of his soul while he was unrepentant. Would he have gone to heaven or hell in that time. The question is the depth of his sin. Can we deny Christ and still think we are in his mercy and grace of has justice kicked in once again where we are back to square one and need to repent. It’s pretty clear to me that Peter needed to do some repenting.


#13

[quote=gusano]I think if OSAS is true… :smiley: Peter could have continued to deny Jesus for the rest of his life… and still be saved.

[/quote]

Well then the verse about “if you deny me…” would not be in the Bible.


#14

peter wasn’t saved yet…and christ had not become the mediator yet…see the new covenant has not yet come around yet…not until christ sealed it with his blood…as for denial you can deny christ all you want and christ will always forgive you and establish you as if you never had done it…“his grace is sufficient for thee” christ blood is able to wash away all sin past & present. but, peter repented but, read over in acts he was BOLD, and preached and thousands were saved. i believe that christ gave is rule over ourselves that we are to judge ourselves in sin…and gives us a grace period to repent…but if we fail to judge ourselves then christ has to judge us…from what i understand that scripture refers to unbelievers…peter believed…you know he had to…he denied christ out of fear for what the people my do to him…but, it still being wrong…he rightly judged himself and repented…

Ceasar


#15

[quote=ceasar]peter wasn’t saved yet…and christ had not become the mediator yet…see the new covenant has not yet come around yet…not until christ sealed it with his blood…as for denial you can deny christ all you want and christ will always forgive you and establish you as if you never had done it…“his grace is sufficient for thee” christ blood is able to wash away all sin past & present. but, peter repented but, read over in acts he was BOLD, and preached and thousands were saved. i believe that christ gave is rule over ourselves that we are to judge ourselves in sin…and gives us a grace period to repent…but if we fail to judge ourselves then christ has to judge us…from what i understand that scripture refers to unbelievers…peter believed…you know he had to…he denied christ out of fear for what the people my do to him…but, it still being wrong…he rightly judged himself and repented…

Ceasar
[/quote]

The question is not whether Peter was saved in the end. He clearly repented and the Catholic Church says he is one of the saints in heaven so he was. The question is the state of his soul in that dark moment. As for Peter not being saved I guess those quys will have to stop holding John 3:16 up in the end zone because it has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church. And I suspect that you will not be using it in your defense of OSAS since it is spoken in present tense and at that time according to you OSAS hadn’t kicked in yet.


#16

Caesar, I would really like to see your answer to my above post, considering that you say that OSAS didn’t start until after the resurrection. How do you justify using verses like John 3:16 to justify OSAS. He’s not talking about the future. Further you cannot say that Peter didn’t have faith.


#17

[quote=ceasar]peter wasn’t saved yet…and christ had not become the mediator yet….see the new covenant has not yet come around yet…not until christ sealed it with his blood…
[/quote]

Then, how do you get the blood that seals you into the New Covenant ?

[quote=]as for denial you can deny christ all you want and christ will always forgive you and establish you as if you never had done it…“his grace is sufficient for thee” **christ blood is able to wash away all sin past & present. **
[/quote]

Again, how, where… do you get the blood that washes away sin ?

[quote=] but, peter repented but, read over in acts he was BOLD, and preached and thousands were saved. i believe that christ gave is rule over ourselves that we are to judge ourselves in sin…and gives us a grace period to repent…but if we fail to judge ourselves then christ has to judge us…from what i understand
that scripture refers to unbelievers…
[/quote]

How can you say that? ( emboldened )
When 2 Tim. 3:16,17 says "All scripture…that the man of God may be perfect…

by your logic …What Jesus said to Nicodemus, “You must be born again…” would not apply to you, since he was talking to a pharisee, and you are not a pharisee !

Maybe you just need to re-adjust your understanding ?

[quote=]peter believed…you know he had to…he denied christ out of fear for what the people my do to him…but, it still being wrong…he rightly judged himself and repented…

Ceasar
[/quote]

Peter judging himself was not enough.
Jesus knew his repentant heart, but Peter was not re-instated intil Jesus , after He began to draw him back in, Jn.21:15-17…it was after Jesus declared to Peter (verses 18-22)…that Peter was re-instated.
Jesus is the Judge of the living and the dead.
He decides when and If we are forgiven and re-instated…not we.

gusano


#18

ceasar,

If you’re still around, please answer thessalonian’s question.

thessalonian,
There seems to be a shortage of OSAS Protestants on this thread. If you’ll allow me to play the Devil’s Advocate, I will give you the answers with which I have been presented, and hope to get the ball rolling:

Gal 5

4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Yes, Peter had lost some of the grace he had been given; he did not lose his salvation. He backslid, and separated himself from God - he could not completely separate himself, however, as OSAS is **true **(Nothing can pluck me out of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand (John 10:25-29)). At most he lost some of the “rewards” he will be given in heaven. When Peter repented, he was entirely restored to a right relationship with God. Your verse about “denying” Christ refers only to the innitial reception/rejection of Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.
You see, a Christian has the responsibility to be faithful “unto death” (Revelation 2:10). Part of this faithfulness, would be confessing our sins (1 John 1:9). As it is appointed unto man once to die, and after this, the judgment (Hebrews 9:27), it appears that physical death is the point in time when it is “too long to ask for repentance,” as you put it. If by the question, you mean, “How long does it take after sinning, and not repenting, to no longer be “walking in the light” and, therefore, be “fallen from grace”? I don’t know! You’re asking me to whittle on God’s end of the stick, and I’m not in any position to do so. Even so, the fact that I don’t know the answer to this question does not mean that I don’t need to heed the warnings about falling, does it?
On the other hand, I “know” my sins are remitted, washed with the precious blood of Christ, because the Bible tells me so (Acts 2:28; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; 1 John 1:5-2:2). Jesus, my Advocate, continues to make intercession for me as my Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), and this is very comforting to me. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit, who has been given to me by my Lord (Acts 3:28; 5:32; 1 Corinthians 6:19; etc.), also helps my “weaknesses” and makes “intercession” for me “according to the will of God”(Romans 8:26-27). Consequently, because of my trust in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I am expecting to go to Heaven. I do not live in fear and dread, but in the bold confidence I have in connection with Jesus Christ, as taught in Hebrews 10:19-23:

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; )”

How’s that for starters?

RyanL


#19

Ryan,

You make a pretty good devils advocate. That in all honesty is the best answer I have heard yet. Funny it came from a Catholic that doesn’t believe this lie of OSAS. I would say with regard to the boldness thing, such a person who walks in such a manner has his focus on Christ and that is a good thing but it is presumptuous of God to believe that “fallen from grace” just means loss of reward and “if he denies me I will deny him before the Father” just means loss of reward. Are we not to work out our salvation in “fear and trembling”. Much more I could say but since the OSAS crowd won’t defend their beliefs I don’t feel there’s much point. Thanks for trying to get the ball rolling.

Caesar, you out there bud. Still wondering if John 3:16 can be used to defend OSAS from your perspective.

Blessings


#20

Thank you!

We do no justice to the Protestant position to simply set up lame arguments to knock down. I have been a Catholic all of my life (albiet not a very good one for most of it), but I have often been confused when presented with Protestant theology. After much study, I think I have a handle on why the above is biblically incorrect (as it fails to take the fullness of scripture into account, and flatly ignores certain parts). It is my hope that we can learn some apologetics in dismanteling this argument, to expose the errors in logic and to show the Truth of the Church. While I agree that Catholics debating Catholics about things they don’t believe is, in and of itself, fruitless, we might be able to have a lesson for those who don’t know the answers yet.

Anyone feel free to chime in, and I look forward to responses!

RyanL


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