Question on becoming a catholic and rejecting some teachings of JP2e

Dear forum members,

Iam from the Netherlands and i grew up as a roman catholic, but at the age of 21 I left the roman catholic church, and became a Baptist. As a family we are also active members of our Baptist church, and myself iam also preaching once in the while.

We are living in a Roman Catholic area in the Netherlands, and right now I want to study again sincerely my roman catholic background and the early church, because I read so much against roman catholic church and the papacy, so I have it really on my heart to read good books, which gives a good understanding about RCC instead of all these anti-RCC books.
For myself already started to read these last days some roman catholic theologians like Augustine, Bernard Clairvaux and especially Thomas Aquinas, which I really love to read.
Last weeks i also got some great books from TAN publishing concerning the mass and the Eucharist.

So as a Baptist and ex-catholic i have become sincerely interested in the study of roman catholics, because I see more and more that we as evangelicals don’t really understand Roman Catholism and its doctrine, especially on the teaching of the virgin Mary and Fatima.

These last weeks, the Lord God is really changing my whole view on the RCC, instead of being a anti-catholic, i got a deep love and interested in the RCC and its teaching, which is only by the grace of God. Through more study iam even willing to go back to the RCC, but I know that I need more time to dig into the theology and teachings of the RCC, because my wife is also from a evangelical background.

By the reading of those great fathers like Clairvaux, Aquinas and Augustine i experience so much influences that it even makes me as a protestant stop being in a protest, and it makes me returning back and drawing me back to the ancient church
I have also these last days some very good conversations and discussions with my wife concerning the ancient RCC, and I don’t believe it is is without a divine purpose.

In my journey iam still facing with some problems concerning the second Vatican counsel. I don’t have a problem that the mass is done (partly) in our own language, but what I really think is heresy are the interfaith meetings (with budist, pagans demon religions) that I have seen from Pope John Paul 2e, the view on the Islam (that they worship the same God, but still lacking it’s fullness) and most horrible thing was the kissing of the Koran.

For as a protestant whom love and fears the Word of God, i can’t accept that and iam very offend it by it, and this is one of the reasons why many conservative protestant are mocking against Rome because of these liberal and modern examples.

Iam very disappointed why so-called conservative Catholics, try to defend Pope John Paul on this, because as I understood (with my limited knowledge) this goes it own teachings of the RCC.

Council of Carthage (a.d. 298)
“None must either pray or sing psalms with heretics; and whosoever shall communicated with those who are cut off from the Communion of the Church, whether clergymen or laic, let him be excommunicated.” (Coun. Carth. Iv 72 and 73) 18

And what I understood, is that the Pope’s teachings on doctrine and moral are infallible, so these example are not just own opinions of the pope, but has to do with doctrine and moral.

  • So can I still become a catholic and joins a church which is according to the second Vatican counsel, but rejects these examples above of Pope John Paul 2e ?

  • If I rejected this and see this as a heresy, than iam saying that Pope John Paul is not infallible as a pope, which also contradicted tradition and scripture.

So any thoughts or help on this ?, because iam very confused and in my prayers I asking for insight.

Iam very sorry for my bad english gramma, but i hope that you can understand me.

Hello and welcome.First Infalibility;This is only in matters of faith and morals.The Holy Father cannot "change"any of the moral teaching or teaching on matters of faith.Infalibity does not mean everything the Pope says and does is infalible.The Holy Spirit leads and guides the Magistarium along with the Pope and therefore these matters cannot be changed.On a personal note I would not kiss the Quran(Koran).May our Lord Jesus give you the grace to continue the leading of the Holy Spirit,Rocky.

Welcome to our Faith Community! A good way to learn about what the Catholic Church really teaches is to read “The Official Catechism of the Catholic Church”. It will explain what the Church’s teaching is on everything from abortion to the enviroment. You also can always call your local Catholic Church and make an appointment to speak to a priest who will be happy to answer your questions and concerns.

News about Pope John Paul II and ecumenical talks.

catholicnews.com/jpii/stories/story04.htm

Thanks for your answer.

But if the pope kisses the Quran and prays toghter with pagan religions and witchdocters, than it has all to do with matters of faith and morals.

So the only conclusion that i can make is that i must embraced this kind of morals of John pope the 2e, but the problem is that i believe it is heresy.

It’s not that i want to lean towards traditionalism, but it’s a very serieus matter against our christian faith, and i view it (with most conservative protestants) as liberalism and moderism.
So if it John Paul was infalible, than iam very confused on this matter of faith and moral, with the examples that i haven give you.

I think the issue involving the late pope having kissed the Koran is addressed ably here.

Catechism of the Catholic Church on “I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#819

The Church and non Christians

The Church and non-Christians

CCC # 839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. …

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”…

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:…

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”…

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
**
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

The following video is from the Dimmond brothers, and let me made clear that i don’t want to support the dimmond brothers at all, because i think they are a cult !

But we cannot deny that these video’s shows heresies of JP2 with his interfaith meetings, so what to do with his infability concerning faith and morals ???

youtube.com/watch?v=9rTOjUVIOfg

youtube.com/watch?v=Qcgm0Jiy5jA

youtube.com/watch?v=DbqslK_Y_ww

youtube.com/watch?v=d6HTK2xEJuY

All we know is that he kissed a book. Adding that he prays with pagans and witchdoctors is putting forth a lie.

I’m sure he did this to be polite. Maybe not the best thing he did in his pontificate, but it shows that he is human and makes mistakes, even one that could cause scandal.

I’m sure if he had to do it over again, he probably wouldn’t have done so.

Let’s read good motives into what he did, rather than read into it what isn’t there. That’s not fair at all.

I think the Jimmy Akin article (above link) is a good one.

(Edited)
Read the catechism. Don’t believe what the cultists say. They are liars with their own agenda.

The two greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor. JP2 wasn’t changing any catholic or christian beliefs by meeting with people of other religions, if anything I think he was just trying to reach out to them to show the world that Christians do love everyone.

Jesus himself met with all sorts of unsavory characters and often the heroes of his parables are those that were considered outcasts or religiously inferior - like the Samaritans, lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors, etc. And many people rejected him because of this.

About Islam - from what I understand they do worship the same one God as Christians and Jews. They are descendents of Abraham through Ishmael, and they do worship the God of Abraham.

Christians are called to be a light to the world. The world is much bigger than Christendom. Speaking respectfully to people of other faiths and learning about their life and experience of God is one way to show that light.

While I agree with those who felt it shocking that the Koran was kissed I can see something not heretical. The Moral or Natural Law is the law imprinted on every person despite their religious instruction - it’s the law which we hear within ourselves that says it’s not right to steal, lie or sleep with another persons spouse. Pope JP2, in keeping with Sacred Scripture the Pope, became to Muslims a person who could admit that there are some things in the Koran which reflect God’s Moral or Natural law in order to save a few.

Just MHO.

With all respect, but that is a serieus error, thinking that because they (Muslims and Jews) are descendents of Abraham are worshipping the same God (of Abraham).
Have you ever really studied Islam ? They rejected the Truine God, and have a false god, not the same God, i even think it’s a offense towards the Lord of Glory, to think that people can worship the same God, while rejecting His own Being as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

John 5:23
…He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

How do you members reads the following qoute in relationship with the interfaith meetings ?:

Council of Carthage (a.d. 298)
“None must either pray or sing psalms with heretics; and whosoever shall communicated with those who are cut off from the Communion of the Church, whether clergymen or laic, let him be excommunicated.” (Coun. Carth. Iv 72 and 73) 18

While i understand your piont not to believe cultist and i also wanne be aware of this, i don’t understand why these video’s are showing nothing and why it is a lie ?

This is from a beginning the problem that iam facing, that many catholics don’t want face this and can’t accept the critic towards JP2 (which i also understand, if you believe that the JP2 is infalible).

On the other hand, you have also traditional catholic, whom speaks against the interfaith meetings as heresy, while not being in a cult like the Dimmond brothers.

yes

and joins a church which is according to the second Vatican counsel, but rejects these examples above of Pope John Paul 2e ?..

This is an errored statement with a question mark attached

  • If I rejected this and see this as a heresy, than iam saying that Pope John Paul is not infallible as a pope, which also contradicted tradition and scripture…

no, this is a misunderstanding

So any thoughts or help on this ?, because iam very confused and in my prayers I asking for insight.

Iam very sorry for my bad english gramma, but i hope that you can understand me.

You‘re weaving in and out of catholic teaching which is creating a false understanding. Step one JPII was not violating the Church. Step two your mixing those who know the church and turn away ( as written in ecumenical councils) verses those who do not know the Church as Muslims and Protestants (born into protestant faith). Step three none of this is related to infallible teachings. Infallibility has to do with Peter receiving the keys to the kingdom by which the Church was empower to lead the faithful, thus man cannot fail through following the Church.

Hope that helps

it is just a matter of understanding. the pope did those things but none of what he did changes the teachings of the Church.

what we must understand is that the pope did what he had to do to bring these people to want to know more about Christ.
we know that muslins and Jews do not accept Jesus but they do believe in the same God. the God of Abraham.

the pope wanted to lead by example. by showing love for them, we would hope they would do the same for us. sometimes it doesnt always work. but he did the best he could. i would not know what to do if i was in his place. take care not to judge from afar.

as we know muslins have hatred for Christians, so the pope showed them the love Christians have for them despite of their hate towards us…
do not lean on your own understanding but allow God to work on these people.

dont let these events discourage you on this journey. you seem to have a great love for the Church, this is not a small thing. i am surprised by it, since i see many Catholics have not reach such a love for the Church.

Blessings.

It is essential that you understand that Catholics do not believe that the Pope is infallible in every act and statement of his daily life. He is only promised the protection of infallibility under very precise and specific circumstances.

There have been many popes through the centuries who have done many worse things than Pope John Paul II. Some of them have been heinous sinners. But they have not changed the teaching of the Church.

It is also true that not every statement of every Council is infallible and unchangeable. Frequently Councils addressed specific conditions of a time or place. These teachings can be reformed when conditions change. That’s why Jesus left us with an authoritative Church and not just a set of unchangeable documents.

Anti-catholics often dig up old documents and say “See, the Church teaches this and that.” Don’t fall into that trap.

If Jesus is calling you back to the Church, trust Him to lead you. Don’t try to assert that your understanding is the only standard of truth. And don’t think that you have to figure out 2000 years worth of teaching all at once.

It doesn’t appear that the new Catechism of the Catholic Church is available in Dutch, but you will find it on the Vatican website in several languages. It would probably be best to begin your studies there.

Many have suggested that you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which contains the ordinary teachings of the Catholic Church. Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say on the matter of Islam:

[quote=“CCC 841”]The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us adore the one, merciful God, man’s judge on the last day.”
[/quote]

Take that for what it is worth.

Throughout the time that Pope John Paul II served the Church, he was a great model of sanctity and Christian charity. I truly believe that he will be declared a saint someday. soon.

The enemies of the Church will do anything to discredit her,…witness all the spurious, anti-Catholic sites one finds on the internet.

Things aren’t always what they look like. Pope John Paul II knows that Jesus alone is Lord, and any actions that some would like to point to does not take away from that truth. Satan likes to sow seeds of doubt in the minds of others, and wastes no time in doing so.

I just watched a movie about Padre Pio and became aware of all the lies and misunderstandings he had to put up with, and did so with humility and patience, from many of the Catholics around him. Now his heroic virtue is well-known, and he has been declared a saint. It is never wasy for a saint.

So, do you see the traditional catholics as enemies, because they have spoken (or still speaks) very clearly against these matters of JP2e ?

I only can ask you all for your prayers, because iam very confused, and i really started to love more and more the ancient church, but as a conservative christian, i can’t accept (from the scriptures and conscious) what JP2e did.
For most of you, this is not big issue, but for it is.

Iam veryy sorry to say this, but iam more confused in what the catchism writes concerning the muslims:

…profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us adore the one, merciful God,…

We can only adore the only True Living Truine God, exclusive through the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ, and not by a false god, and praying to false god is idoltry and not adoration ! These are the same thoughts that iam hearing also from liberal and modernist protestants, which the church from the past has always rejected.

There is a book from TAN publications:
St. Francis of Assisi and the Conversion of the Muslims

What is heard ( and i hope to read this book soon), speaks totally different of the Islam than modern day catholicism:
tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/723/keywords/muslims/

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