Question on Matt 16:18

My friend had told me that in Matt 16:18. when Jesus said
" and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it (the church)" he was referring to a pagan monument at Caesarea Philippi that had giant gates. My friend insinuated that Jesus was saying that a particular pagan religion at the time (I forgot the name of the pagan religion she was refering to) would not prevail against it. It was her rebuttle for the Catholic reply that Jesus would not let the Church astray (teach error).
Secondly, in my RSV version it says
"the powers of death shall not prevail against it."
Which would be a proper translation from the Greek.
I have never heard of this before. Help!
:confused:

According to my Ignatius Catholic Study Bible - The Gospel of Matthew, it means this:
the powers of death: Literally, “the gates of Hades”. In the OT, Hades - also called “Sheol” or “the Pit” - is the place of the dead where souls descend through its gates (Ps 9:13, 17; Wis 16:13; Is 38:10; Jon 2:2). It is not hell, but a temporary realm where souls are detained until the Last Judgment (Rev 20:13-15). By extension, Hades is also the habituation of evil forces that bring about death and deception (Rev 6:8; 20:1-3). According to Jewish tradition, the foundation stone (Heb. 'eben shetiyyah) of the Jerusalem Temple capped off and sealed a long shaft leading down to the netherworld (Rev 9:1-2; 20:1-3). The Temple, resting securely on a rock, was thus the center of the cosmos, the junction between heaven and Hades. Drawing from this background, Jesus guarentees that the powers of death and deception will not overcome the Church - i.e. the new Temple built on Peter. He enables Peter (and his successors) to hold error at bay and faithfully proclaim the gospel (CCC 552).
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[quote=sirach137]My friend had told me that in Matt 16:18. when Jesus said
" and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it (the church)" he was referring to a pagan monument at Caesarea Philippi that had giant gates. My friend insinuated that Jesus was saying that a particular pagan religion at the time (I forgot the name of the pagan religion she was referring to) would not prevail against it. It was her rebuttle for the Catholic reply that Jesus would not let the Church astray (teach error).
Secondly, in my RSV version it says
"the powers of death shall not prevail against it."
Which would be a proper translation from the Greek.
I have never heard of this before. Help!
:confused:
[/quote]

Please don’t be confused. Seek the truth from His Church. And when your friend is asked about the last supper discourse where He promises to send the Holy Spirit to His Church leaders to lead them to all truth? Or when He tells Peter that what he hold bound on earth shall be bound in heaven, or when He tells His Church leaders (Apostles) the same (and grants them the power to forgive sins) He promises in many more than one place in Scripture that His Church will teach correctly (infallible). Your friend is interpreting Scripture incorrectly, in a vain attempt to prove His Church teaches incorrectly. It didn’t work. Don’t fall for it. Read Scripture its teachings are the Catholic Church teachings. When you disagree with Catholic Church teaching you need to seek the actual teaching and find out the reason for their teaching. You’ll be amazed, even the times you feel, this must be wrong, once you read the Churches point of view, it will really make sense. When I find myself doubting the Church teaching I realize it’s my lack of understanding, not the Church in error, but I don’t leave it there, I find out why I’m wrong, and yes, every time it’s been “my” error, not the Church. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.

Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting “on this rock,” the Scriptures use the Greek construction “tautee tee” which means on “this” rock; on “this same” rock; or on “this very” rock**. “Tautee tee” is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence** (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”

Matt. 16:18-19 - in addition, to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter’s leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are** Peter**, and on this *(“tautee tee”,*demonstrative construction in Greek refering to Peter, the subject) rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:17 - to further rebut the notion that Jesus was calling Peter a small pebble, Simon in Aramaic means “grain of sand.” If Simon’s name meant “grain of sand,” it would be pointless for Jesus to change his name from “grain of sand” to “pebble.”

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built. (there are many anti-thesis in the bible, italics mine)

Matt. 7:24 - Jesus, like the wise man, builds His house on the rock (Peter), not on grain of sand (Simon) so the house will not fall.

Luke 6:48 - the house (the Church) built upon the rock (Peter) cannot be shaken by floods (which represent the heresies, schisms, and scandals that the Church has faced over the last 2,000 years). Floods have occurred, but the Church still remains on its solid rock foundation.

Matt. 16:21 - it is also important to note that it was only after Jesus established Peter as leader of the Church that He began to speak of His death and departure. This is because Jesus had now appointed His representative on earth.

Quotations from Protestant scholars who agree that Matthew 16:18 refers to Peter personally catholicoutlook.com/rock2.php

kepha1

[quote=sirach137]My friend had told me that in Matt 16:18. when Jesus said
" and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it (the church)" he was referring to a pagan monument at Caesarea Philippi that had giant gates.** My friend insinuated that Jesus was saying that a particular pagan religion at the time (I forgot the name of the pagan religion she was refering to) would not prevail against it. It was her rebuttle for the Catholic reply that Jesus would not let the Church astray (teach error).**
Secondly, in my RSV version it says
"the powers of death shall not prevail against it."
Which would be a proper translation from the Greek.
I have never heard of this before. Help!
:confused:
[/quote]

Was she present when this conversation took place? :smiley:

Protestantism was built on speculation & misinterpretation of scripture, so this doesn’t surprise me.

Tell your friend that she is calling Jesus a liar because he said that he would be with His Church until the end of time. If He would allow death to overshadow His Church then He would be a liar & not worth beliveing in. You gotta call these people on their b.s. or they’ll continue being fooled.

Stephen K. Ray describes this pagan temple at Cesearea Philipi in his book Upon This Rock.

This temple was built upon a sheer cliff.
The imagery Jesus used was unmistakable - that just as this temple was built upon rock - so would HIS Church be built upon a rock - the rock of Peter.

This pagan temple actually supports the catholic position.
I don’t remember if Ray described any “gates”

Steve Rays look at Cesearea Philipi is amazing. He does mention ‘the Gates" in the sense of part of the Pagan temple was called the gates of Hades-the underworld. The Temple is built at the giant rock of Cesearea Philipi and that is where Jesus renames Simon ‘Rock’. Translated from Aramaic, Matt 16:18 can be read "Blessed are you Simon…you are Rock, and upon this Rock I shall build my church. The Roman temple there was built by Herod to the false god Ceasar, before that, the pagan god Pan was worshipped. Pan was the god of sheed and shepherds. Rays point is at the Rock of the false god of shepherds, Jesus makes Peter the Rock of the True God and the shepherd of the Earthly church. "I give you the Keys’ referrs to the Jewish custom of a King appointing a head steward to his kingdom. Getting the keys makes you the one ‘over the house’ the King’s steward or Vizior. besides the book, Ray also has an audio CD available called “Peter: the Rock, Keys, and Chair” VERY good!!

padfield.com/acrobat/history/Caesarea_Philippi.pdf

Hi sirach137, your friend is partly right. There are no “giant gates” there, but there is a cave that some christians in the region believed led to the underworld. The pagan god that is being referred to in that region was Pan.

Simply, study the word gate in scripture to show that gates referred to a place of authority. The seat of Moses for example were at the city gates.

members.aol.com/joyinliving7/rock4.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=Caesarea+Philippi+++Pan++Matthew+16%3A18

bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/8_27-30.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0504fea3.asp


Hi, sirach!

…sadly, many non-Catholics tend to create just such state of mind (confused)…

They are so intent in removing the Authority of the Catholic Church that they do not even notice that they are rejecting or dismissing Christ Himself!

Could you imagine Christ worrying about Judaism?

Could you imagine Jesus worried about a little competition from a pagan religion?

Unknowingly, perhaps, your friend has raised an obscured pagan religion to an equal plane with Jesus Christ!

Just ask your friend, how many demons trembled at the sight of that pagan monument or what it stood for?

Maran atha!

Angel***

That location, I believe, was a worship site of the god Pan and also of Caesar.

There probably is some metaphor there for the netherworld because that site has a deep hole in the ground that pagans believed was the entrance to the netherworld.

Unfortunately though, she can interpret it that way if she likes with her theology. To each his own when it comes to interpretation in the protestant world.

But, I do notice that she is still saying somewhat the same thing as we do with emphasis directed away from the Catholic Church and to her idea of the Christian church in general.

ah, beat me to it.

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