Question on Pater Noster


#1

Hello,

In the part where we beseech God to give us this day our daily bread - in the Latin is it:

quotidianum

or

cotidianum


#2

“…panem nostram quotidianum da nobis hodie…”


#3

Sorry, it’s “panem nostrum quotidianum”, not “panem nostram quotidianum”. Got my declensions mixed up.


#4

Hello,

I have seen both quotidianum and cotidianum. To me, cotidianum seems like a more modern usage. It also seems to me that it would slightly change the sound of the word.


#5

You appear to be correct about the interchangability. This link has the “c” spelling:
geauxto.com/LatinLiturgyAssociation/id18.htm

and this one has the “qu”:
preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Basics/OraDom.html


#6

“Panem nostrum cotidiánum da nobis hódie”

This is the version printed in both the Latin version of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” and in the English/Latin “Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church”.

Honestly when I looked there I expected to see “quotidianum”. It was quite a surprise.


#7

Latin is a dead language. That is why we need to use it, it will never change.:smiley:


#8

Hello,

I’m sorry, did you say something? I was too busy coming up with some new Latin words and expressions. :stuck_out_tongue:


#9

FWIW, in Greek it’s “ton arton imon ton EPIOUSION dos imin simeron”–the SUPERSUBSTANTIAL bread or bread that is ABOVE ESSENCE.

Think real hard and see if you can come up with what that bread probably is…

(Yes, the Greek Fathers have waxed eloquent on this very point.)


#10

Our Mother The Church has published in 1979 a new version of the Latin Bible called Nova Vulgata superseding the old Vulgata.
Pope John Paull II declared it to be the editio typica - The One To Be Used in Liturgy.

So please read Matthew 6 11 Panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie;

Supersubstantialem explained more to us than quotidianum. It closer to the Greek text. We depend on God not only for the daily food but for each day necessary food to survive.
Nguyen Cong Binh


#11

Even the Vulgata previously in use contained the phrase “supersubstanialem” for st. Matthew (which dates back to the translation of St. Jerome); however then, like now, the Church uses in the Pater of the liturgy the version that predates this by employing “quotidianum”


#12

Not being a Latin scholar, I don’t know but I think the difference has to do with whether one employs Old Latin spelling or not. Probably someone will be along to explain?

But in altar missals- usually until 1961 was printed “quotidianum” for the Pater, and also elsewhere in the book e.g. “in Missis quotidianis Defunctorum” In altar missals after 1961, it is more likely to be printed “cotidianum”, and also the same elsewhere e.g. “in Missis cotidianis Defunctorum” This spelling is also in the latest editio typica of the Missale Romanum

That was also the time was they started doing things like “i” instead of “j” in the missals


#13

Hello,

That at least is easily explainable. There was no ‘j’ in the Latin alphabet, nor in any alphabet until the time of the Renaissance (approx.). It was a stylized version of the letter ‘i’ that evolved to get it’s own sound. But even in Latin, ‘j’ still has no distinct sound. And it usually confuses those who don’t know so they are trying to make a ‘j’ sound that is not supposed to be there.

I know it usually annoys me when I get a nice Latin missal or something and I see “Jesu”, “cujus”, “adjutorum”, etc. :slight_smile:


#14

You are right, some Old St Jerome 's texts used the same adjective Supersubstantialem (for epiousion)
Mat 6:11 ton arton hêmôn ton epiousion dos hêmin sêmeron:
Give us this very day the bread that suffices for each day
[no more - no less] Tomorrow we will pray again for the next day’s bread ?]
[epiousion : the bread of our necessity , the bread that suffices for each day
sêmeron:this very day]
We are all used to **quotidianum. **. It’s OK w/ me


#15

Panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie;

Cool. That’s how I say it in private recitation. Much closer to epiousion.


#16

In the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, in Part Four, Section Two, Article 3, IV of the Petitions, "cotidianum" is used to translate the "daily" of the Lord's prayer in: the table of contents, the heading of IV of the Petitions, and in the first sentence of paragraph 2837. I am accessing the Cathechism, in Latin, on the vatican.va site in May 2012.

There is a note later within paragraph 2837 that says a more literal translation of the Greek "epi-ousios" would be "super-substantiale" in Latin.

In Matthew 6:11 of the Latin Bible version of the Lord's prayer posted on vatican.va, the word "daily" is translated "supersubstantialem" with an "m" on the end of the word. In Luke 11:3 of the Latin Bible version of the Lord's prayer posted on vatican.va, the word "daily" is translated "cotidianum" instead.

ewtn.com's prayers section and my traditional Latin mass missal both use "quotidianum" in the Lord's prayer. I would not be surprised if recent popes, quoting the Our Father, used "quotidianum" either, but I don't have time to check every papal document on vatican.va! :-)

--In Christ Jesus Through Mary, Scott Thomas


#17

In the “for-what-it’s-worth” department, I did a Google search on 21MAY2012, all languages, for the following:

“panem nostrum supersubstantialem” 148,000 hits
"panem nostrum cotidianum" 147,000 hits
"panem nostrum quotidianum" 111,000 hits
"panem nostrum super-substantiale" 6 hits
"panem nostrum supersubstantiale" 1 hit

How to interpret that? I don’t know. Both “cotidianum” and “quotidianum” sound close to the English word “quotidian,” which is a highbrow English word for “daily.” Combined figures for those two words (“cotidianum” and “quotidianum”) outnumber “supersubstantialem” hits by 75%. I imagine old music, written in Latin, isn’t going to change to “supersubstantialem” because it just doesn’t roll off the tongue easily! :slight_smile: The Holy See’s website further muddles things because as my previous post stated, the Catechism of the Catholic Church employs both “cotidianum” and “super-substantiale” (sic) for the Lord’s prayer, and then the current Vulgate employs both “supersubstantialem” (in Matthew) and “cotidianum” (in Luke) for the Lord’s prayer.

– In Christ Jesus Through Mary, Scott Ramsay


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