Question on Purgatory, Answered!

In a thread I recently left, I was challenged about Purgatory and about God and things unclean. I will attempt to offer my own poor answer that may be unacceptable and I might get quote bombed for it ( which is fine. I think the work is unnecessary, but I appreciate the passion people put into it). Okay. I believe that Christ died for my sins. Personally, as if I were the only person in the world, He came to die for* me*. And* I* put Him to death,* I mocked Him, I flogged Him, I* declared my unwavering loyalty to Him just to deny Him three times.* I* kissed His cheek to identify Him to a blood thirsty mob. I nailed Him to the Cross. Since my Baptism, God looks at me and sees Jesus.He cleansed me from my sin nearly 2000 years ago. " It is finished!" He cried. There is no need for Purgatory because, as stinking a bag of **** and worms that I am, He cleansed me. At my Baptism, every time I approach the Altar to partake of His Body and Blood, quite simply, I am forgiven! Every time I approach my minister, privately and as part of the Divine Service congregation and I am absolved from my sins, again, I am forgiven! That’s how the faith produces the love that is expressed in following the Law and doing good works!* I’m *not the one who does them. He Who began a good work in me will bring it to completion on the Day of Christ Jesus. How do I take the Sacrament in a worthy fashion? Simply to believe that Jesus meant what He said when he said that " this is My Body" and " this is My Blood." Simply to share the Confession of the Congregation. Innovation or not, perhaps Purgatory does exist, if that means that the Holy Spirit is constantly at work purging the old Adam out of Christ’s people. Innovations are not necessarily false, perhaps a revelation put to a comprehensive form, like sola fide. Aye, indeed, I see no problem with certain ideas of purification, as in a very real sense, we are all purified in the eyes of God through Christ!

A very interesting perspective.

I think the best response to this would be:

What do you think about Original Sin? Do you believe in it or deny it?

I do *not *believe in Original Sin, if the question was for me.

I believe in it wholeheartedly. I know it’s true, I inherited it, just like everybody else. That means that Adam’s sin is justly laid at my door as well. Just like it was washed away from me ( not the temporal effects, of course, but in Christ I need no longer fear eternal death and separation from God) in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

LutheranScholar #1
There is no need for Purgatory because, as stinking a bag of **** and worms that I am, He cleansed me….perhaps Purgatory does exist

Just as a valid priesthood is needed for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Body and Blood of Christ, so is a valid Magisterium required for understanding the teaching of Christ. So that is no answer.

The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

So the real Bible as authenticated by the Catholic Church is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:

  1. Mt 12:32: Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.

  2. Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.

  3. Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphasises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.

  4. 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
    Another example of purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.

:smiley:

I know you don’t hahaha that’s why I was asking LutheranScholar.

It’s a whole other argument with you my friend, which would be fairly interesting :smiley:

:slight_smile:

Very good. So, since the Temporal effects are still there even after Baptism and many confessions, it would mean that we are still unclean to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So, purgatory then would be necessary for cleansing “gold is tested in fire”.

Purgatory, I hope you know, is just a stage that we go through to get to heaven. If someone goes through purgatory, there is no chance for them to go to hell. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with purgatory at all. What’s wrong with being clean for ALMIGHTY GOD?!

Heck even czarlazar and the Orthodox who don’t believe in original sin still believe in purgatory.

I’m hoping this means your on our side for this debate about the existence of purgatory hahaha :smiley: :thumbsup:

Well, no, unfortunately I don’t think so. We are probably somewhere between the Roman Catholic view and the Lutheran view.

It seems I do have a concept of purgation, so my blithe statement earlier : " There is no need for Purgatory" is patently not valid. Saying that is very nearly like saying that Christ didn’t have to be the All- Atoning Sacrifice for our sins, so I shall concede your point.

From what I have read and studied, I could of sworn that the Orthodox were only slightly different from ours.

Maybe I’m wrong. :shrug:

I did have an Orthodox priest as my Theology Professor last semester though and we talked a bit about it.

Is that an official Orthodox belief?

Well I dont know if its “official”, but pretty much held belief.

You could say that is true, but most Orthodox reject the Catholic concept of purgatory overwhelmingly.

No, because Christ died once for us and His blood is covering us - God only sees Jesus’ blood and since He is sinless He does not see our sin!

We say this in our liturgy (actually verses 8-10 is what we say):

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

How much more clearer can you be than that there? Doesn’t mean we go out and sin on purpose just because “God doesn’t see it.” or “Jesus cleansed us from it.” Not at all. We strive to walk with Him, follow His commandments, help our fellow man. (I had to come back and edit and make sure you knew I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic with the “clearer” question - It’s just my excitement about what Christ has done for us :thumbsup:)

Purgatory, I hope you know, is just a stage that we go through to get to heaven. If someone goes through purgatory, there is no chance for them to go to hell. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with purgatory at all. What’s wrong with being clean for ALMIGHTY GOD?!

As I stated on another thread - I’m not bothered by purgatory. It’s Adiaphora to me…my salvation does not depend on whether or not I believe it exists…I’d rather focus my attention on living my life for Christ and growing in Him.

Heck even czarlazar and the Orthodox who don’t believe in original sin still believe in purgatory.

:rotfl:

If God declares you clean, you are clean. The one Who said, “Let there be light,” and there was light, declared that the righteous shall be saved by faith.

No purgatory. There is sanctification, and death probably has some sort of sanctifying effect on one.

What if you die right after thinking a really mean thought about your husband, Tomi?

Is that enough to send you to hell?

Are you clean enough to enter heaven with that smudge of sin on your soul?

EDIT: Here, “you” is a rhetorical “you”. Not a personal “you”.

If this is truly what you believe, then you will have no problem accepting the fact that God could have made Mary Immaculate and also that she Assumed.

Because anything is possible with God.

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