Question regarding the word charitoo in the King James Bible with Strongs Dictionary?


#1

In the following link we have the King James Bible with Strong's Dictionary. I have a question regarding the Greek word charitoo; see Strong's 5487:

sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

Every time (with the exception of Luke 1:28) - the Greek word charitoo is translated into English, we see the word grace as can be verified by going to the aforementioned link and clicking on every verse that contains Strong's 5487.

Why is charitoo, in Strong's #5487 translated as grace 27 out of 28 times, to the exclusion of Luke 1:28, where charitoo is instead, translated as "Hail thou that art highly favoured?"

Why the exception with Luke 1:28?


#2

[quote="joe370, post:1, topic:258618"]
In the following link we have the King James Bible with Strong's Dictionary. I have a question regarding the Greek word charitoo; see Strong's 5487:

sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

Every time (with the exception of Luke 1:28) - the Greek word charitoo is translated into English, we see the word grace as can be verified by going to the aforementioned link and clicking on every verse that contains Strong's 5487.

Why is charitoo, in Strong's #5487 translated as grace 27 out of 28 times, to the exclusion of Luke 1:28, where charitoo is instead, translated as "Hail thou that art highly favoured?"

Why the exception with Luke 1:28?

[/quote]

The noun charis, from which we get charitoo, means most literally "gift." You could replace the word "grace" with "gift" at almost every point in the New Testament with no change of meaning. I like the word "gift" because it communicates the aspect of freedom, that God gives spiritual blessings without coercion or obligation. The word "favor" captures something of the same sense, although "highly favored" is still a weak translation. The Greek word in the text is kecharitomene, which is a perfect passive participle, meaning "one who has been gifted." In Greek verbs and participles, the perfect tense not only signified an action completed in the past, but a completed action that is still operative in the present, so the angel is saying the Mary is the recipient of a complete act of gift-giving whose fruits are still in effect. You might see from this how it gives rise to translations like "highly favored" or "full of grace." But "gifted one" would read awkwardly in English.


#3

OP, are you using the definition given in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, or are you using a separate Greek-English lexicon by Strong? Reason I’m asking, SEC is considered by those who get deeply into the Greek of the New Testament to be weak on definitions. Thayer’s is better. Vine’s doesn’t cover every word, but it exhaustively covers the important words.


#4

Unfortunately the reason is quite simple: The KJV was translated with a specific desire to promote specific protestant theologies. the actual Greek meaning
Hail {one who was filled with (grace / the gifts of god) in the past and continues to be now and in the future} is
a) unweildy
b) gives far to much support to the orthodox viewpoint of Mary to make many protestants feel comfortable.

The simplistic answer is therefore: Deliberate obfuscation of the Truth.


#5

[quote="anruari, post:4, topic:258618"]
Unfortunately the reason is quite simple: The KJV was translated with a specific desire to promote specific protestant theologies. the actual Greek meaning
Hail {one who was filled with (grace / the gifts of god) in the past and continues to be now and in the future} is
a) unweildy
b) gives far to much support to the orthodox viewpoint of Mary to make many protestants feel comfortable.

The simplistic answer is therefore: Deliberate obfuscation of the Truth.

[/quote]

I have to concur that this is the only obvious answer here. It was a deliberate choice to deviate from the Formal Equivalence method of translation which was the principle of translation for this bible.
The only possible reason for this was to diminish the visibility of support for Catholic teaching about Mary.


#6

somehow I replied to my own previous reply… how silly of me!


#7

[quote="anruari, post:5, topic:258618"]
I have to concur that this is the only obvious answer here. It was a deliberate choice to deviate from the Formal Equivalence method of translation which was the principle of translation for this bible.
The only possible reason for this was to diminish the visibility of support for Catholic teaching about Mary.

[/quote]

Well, at least you agree with yourself...LOL...LOL...:)


#8

[quote="anruari, post:6, topic:258618"]
somehow I replied to my own previous reply... how silly of me!

[/quote]

Anruari,

It is not silly....:p

Silly would be to vehemently disagree and post an alternative viewpoint and state that your previous post was anathema....:eek:


#9

I could be hijacking this thread (I think I am:p) this kind of reminds me of Luke 1:42. Where some Bibles mention (blessed is the child you will bear)as opposed to (blessed is the fruit of your womb). The former is possibly avoiding the Catholic view that Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant.

MJ


#10

[quote="joe370, post:1, topic:258618"]
In the following link we have the King James Bible with Strong's Dictionary. I have a question regarding the Greek word charitoo; see Strong's 5487:

sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

Every time (with the exception of Luke 1:28) - the Greek word charitoo is translated into English, we see the word grace as can be verified by going to the aforementioned link and clicking on every verse that contains Strong's 5487.

Why is charitoo, in Strong's #5487 translated as grace 27 out of 28 times, to the exclusion of Luke 1:28, where charitoo is instead, translated as "Hail thou that art highly favoured?"

Why the exception with Luke 1:28?

[/quote]

That's interesting. In my Strong's, 5487 is used just twice, the passage you referenced at Luke 1:28 and in Eph. 1:6, where it is rendered as "accepted." All those other occurences listed at the website you linked to are given as 5485 in my Strong's concordance.

Even at the website you gave, there are three different words are clumped under charitoo (please excuse the approximations as to the Greek spelling; I don't seem to have the right characters to make them look like they do at the website):

ecaritwsen, for Eph. 1:6
kecaritwmenh, for Luke 1:28
caritoV, for all the others

I'm no Greek scholar, but at first glance it doesn't seem that deliberate obfuscation need be the answer as to why it is translated "accepted" in Eph. and "highly favoured" in Luke. After all, the form of the word is different in those two places than in all the others.


#11

[quote="joe370, post:1, topic:258618"]
Why is charitoo, in Strong's #5487 translated as grace 27 out of 28 times, to the exclusion of Luke 1:28, where charitoo is instead, translated as "Hail thou that art highly favoured?"

[/quote]

Actually, the verb is only used twice, according to Strong's (source 1 and 2), the other time being in Ephesians 1:6, which the KJV renders "accepted."


#12

[quote="Byzantine_Wolf, post:11, topic:258618"]
Actually, the verb is only used twice, according to Strong's (source 1 and 2), the other time being in Ephesians 1:6, which the KJV renders "accepted."

[/quote]

In the following link we have the King James Bible with Strong's Dictionary. I have a question regarding the Greek word charitoo; see Strong's 5487 in the following link:

sacrednamebible.com/kjvst...K548.htm#S5487

Every time the Greek word charitoo is translated into English, we see the word grace as can be verified by going to the aforementioned link and clicking on every verse within Strong's 5487. The same word (charitoo) is used in Luke 1:28, yet it is translated as highly favored by some non-cahtolics. Why?


#13

[quote="joe370, post:12, topic:258618"]
Every time the Greek word charitoo is translated into English, we see the word grace as can be verified by going to the aforementioned link and clicking on every verse within Strong's 5487. The same word (charitoo) is used in Luke 1:28, yet it is translated as highly favored by some non-cahtolics. Why?

[/quote]

You don't seem to care for the answers that Byzantine Wolf and I provided, but maybe you could comment on them. As stated, Strong's 5487 occurs twice, once in Luke 1:28 as you mentioned, and once in Ephesians 1:6.

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The word "grace" is Strong's 5485, and the word "accepted" is Strong's 5487.

All the other instances of 5487 in the link you provided are listed as Strong's 5485 in my copy of Strong's Concordance. It is rendered as "gracious" in Luke 4:22 and as "grace" in all the others.

I don't know why there is a difference between my hardbound copy and the electronic version at johnhurt.com, but even there you see one spelling of the word in the 5487 entry for what is translated as accepted in Eph. 1:6, and another spelling for what is translated as highly favored in Luke 1:28. All the other occurrences, those rendered as gracious or as grace, share a third variant of the word.

Why is it surprising that different forms of the word might need to be rendered with different words in English?


#14

jrtrent;10330920]You don't seem to care for the answers that Byzantine Wolf and I provided, but maybe you could comment on them. As stated, Strong's 5487 occurs twice, once in Luke 1:28 as you mentioned, and once in Ephesians 1:6.

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:6.

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord with thee: blessed [art] thou among women. Luke 1:28

*Charitoo (from the root charis) - to grace.
*

The word grace should be used for both Ephesians1:6 and Luke 1:28? If not then why is Luke 1:28 the only time that charitoo is not translated that way?

The word "grace" is Strong's 5485, and the word "accepted" is Strong's 5487.

All the other instances of 5487 in the link you provided are listed as Strong's 5485 in my copy of Strong's Concordance. It is rendered as "gracious" in Luke 4:22 and as "grace" in all the others.

So you are suggesting that the word charitoo (grace) is only used twice? What about the following verses - 5487:

, John 1:14, John 1:16, Acts 14:3, Acts 15:11, Acts 18:27, Acts 20:24, Acts 20:32, Rom 5:17, Rom 11:5, Rom 12:3, Gal 1:15, Gal 5:4, Eph 1:6, Eph 1:7, Eph 2:7, Eph 3:2, Eph 3:7, Php 1:7, Heb 4:16, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:15, 1 Pe 1:10, 1 Pe 3:7, 1 Pe 4:10, 1 Pe 5:10


#15

[quote="joe370, post:14, topic:258618"]
*Charitoo (from the root charis) - to grace.
*

The word grace should be used for both Ephesians1:6 and Luke 1:28? If not then why is Luke 1:28 the only time that charitoo is not translated that way?
So you are suggesting that the word charitoo (grace) is only used twice? What about the following verses - 5487:

urls edited

[/quote]

Those are not 5487. As has been pointed out, 5487 is used only twice. Check the Englishman's Concordance. The verses you referenced are the noun, 5485.


#16

[quote="jrtrent, post:13, topic:258618"]

Why is it surprising that different forms of the word might need to be rendered with different words in English?

[/quote]

Regarding Luke 1:28, had been graced is a better fit than favored. Agreed?

The OP: Strongs #5487 is translated as "grace" 27 out of 28 times. Why not include Luke 1:28 and make it 28 out of 28 times?
sacrednamebible.com/kjvst...K548.htm#S5487


#17

[quote="DaveBj, post:15, topic:258618"]
Those are not 5487. As has been pointed out, 5487 is used only twice. Check the Englishman's Concordance. The verses you referenced are the noun, 5485.

[/quote]

sacrednamebible.com/kjvst...K548.htm#S5487

John 1:14 is one of 28 examples found in 5487, minus Luke 1:28 of course, for some reason: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)** full of grace **and truth.

**5487
**caritow
charitoo
ecaritwsen
Eph 1:6
kecaritwmenh
Luke 1:28
caritoV
Luke 4:22, John 1:14, John 1:16, Acts 14:3, Acts 15:11, Acts 18:27, Acts 20:24, Acts 20:32, Rom 5:17, Rom 11:5, Rom 12:3, Gal 1:15, Gal 5:4, Eph 1:6, Eph 1:7, Eph 2:7, Eph 3:2, Eph 3:7, Php 1:7, Heb 4:16, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:15, 1 Pe 1:10, 1 Pe 3:7, 1 Pe 4:10, 1 Pe 5:10


#18

I don’t see the word “accepted” anywhere in the following verses; just the word grace for each. For example: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

5487- Eph 1:6, Luke 1:28, John 1:14, John 1:16, Acts 14:3, Acts 15:11, Acts 18:27, Acts 20:24, Acts 20:32, Rom 5:17, Rom 11:5, Rom 12:3, Gal 1:15, Gal 5:4, Eph 1:6, Eph 1:7, Eph 2:7, Eph 3:2, Eph 3:7, Php 1:7, Heb 4:16, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:15, 1 Pe 1:10, 1 Pe 3:7, 1 Pe 4:10, 1 Pe 5:10


#19

[quote="joe370, post:18, topic:258618"]
I don't see the word "accepted" anywhere in the following verses; just the word grace for each. For example: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

5487- Eph 1:6, Luke 1:28, John 1:14, John 1:16, Acts 14:3, Acts 15:11, Acts 18:27, Acts 20:24, Acts 20:32, Rom 5:17, Rom 11:5, Rom 12:3, Gal 1:15, Gal 5:4, Eph 1:6, Eph 1:7, Eph 2:7, Eph 3:2, Eph 3:7, Php 1:7, Heb 4:16, Heb 10:29, Heb 12:15, 1 Pe 1:10, 1 Pe 3:7, 1 Pe 4:10, 1 Pe 5:10

[/quote]

I just switched back to this window from the window displaying John 1:14 in the Greek interlinear (with Strong's numbers), and John 1:14 is 5485, NOT 5487. Which Greek working aid is telling that John 1:14 (and presumably the others in your list) is 5487? Because you are being misinformed, and by continuing to insist on it you are making yourself look bad. "Grace" as a noun is charis, 5485. "Graced/accepted" as a verb is used only twice, and that is charitoo, 5487.


#20

[quote="DaveBj, post:19, topic:258618"]
I just switched back to this window from the window displaying John 1:14 in the Greek interlinear (with Strong's numbers), and John 1:14 is 5485, NOT 5487. Which Greek working aid is telling that John 1:14 (and presumably the others in your list) is 5487? Because you are being misinformed, and by continuing to insist on it you are making yourself look bad. "Grace" as a noun is charis, 5485. "Graced/accepted" as a verb is used only twice, and that is charitoo, 5487.

[/quote]

So, the following is wrong:

Textus Receptus Greek Text
King James Bible
With Strongs Dictionary

I retrieved it from here:

sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487


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