Question, sorry


#1

Was Mary baptized as Christ was?


#2

I would think that with Marys I.C. she wouldn’t need to be baptized (I mean why do something that gets rid of Original Sin if you never had it right). I could be wrong so I would wait for confirmation from someone who is smarter than I before you take this to the bank.


#3

I have no idea. But remember that Christ’s baptism by John the Baptist was not the Sacrament of Baptism. It was a baptism of repentance. The sacraments had not yet been established. John was preparing the way for Christ. If I recall rightly, Jesus’ command to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit came at the end of his earthly ministry, after the resurrection. John’s preaching and baptisms of repentance came before Jesus began his ministry.


#4

[quote=Emly]Was Mary baptized as Christ was?
[/quote]

Emly, as Montie has stated there was no reason for the Blessed Mother to be baptized. Also, and as a side note, the baptism that Christ received at the hands of John the Baptist was not, of course, a Christian baptism.


#5

The Sacrament of Baptism is an outward sign that signifies the grace that it bestows. The grace of Baptism is more than a purification of the stain of original sin. It is also a rebirth into the divine life, through an immersion into the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Yes, Mary was baptized – at the Cross, where her Immaculate Heart was united to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Mary stood at the foot of the Cross when Jesus died, and she was literally baptized with the blood and water which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus.

Baptism is the doorway into the Church, and Mary, a Jew, was the first person through that doorway. Mary was the first Christian.


#6

Mary was baptized with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost with all the other apostles.


#7

Sorry guys, but if Jesus required himself to be baptized, I think it far more likely that Mary was also baptized at some point, with Water, not just Fire, as Jesus himself required.

Understand, your reasons for saying she didn’t need baptism (b/c of IC and whatnot) also apply completely to Christ, and apply to her even more so, as she was presented as a human example to us.

That it is not recorded is not really that important; was Levi, a later addition to the list of apostles, Baptised? how about any of the apostles and disciples who joined Christ after his own baptism? It is not recorded, but it is a reasonable assumption that they did.

Given the weight we assume that watery baptism had during Christ’s lifetime, then it would be likewise necessary for Mary to have been baptised, even if not unto repentance (if you hold to the total sinlessness of Mary, rather than the dogmatic freedom from Original Sin). She would have, according to the current vision of her life, consented to baptism if for no other reason than because Jesus asked it of all who believed in him. Nor would it detract from her Immaculate (impeccible) condition to be baptized under Christ, any more than it did for God to consent to be baptized under John’s baptism of repentance.

Frankly, I think that the scriptural silence on the matter suggest far more that she did follow Christ’s teachings on the matter, otherwise there would have been some question of her lack of baptism by the disciples, or his declaration as to the lack of its necessity in her case. An exception would more likely have been recorded than following the standard expectation of the community.

but, just my $.02


#8

since the gospels tell us that the apostles, when they were sent on their mission, also baptized, we can safely assume that they and all the other disciples, including Mary and the other women who followed Jesus, were also baptized. She would have been the last one to say “I don’t need it, I’m already immaculate” since she obeyed the law in every instance including the purification.


#9

[quote=puzzleannie]since the gospels tell us that the apostles, when they were sent on their mission, also baptized, we can safely assume that they and all the other disciples, including Mary and the other women who followed Jesus, were also baptized. She would have been the last one to say “I don’t need it, I’m already immaculate” since she obeyed the law in every instance including the purification.
[/quote]

Good point. Mary didn’t have to die, but tradition states that she did. Mary is humble and meek. I doubt she rejected baptism.


#10

Baptism for the Apostles was the experience of going through the Passion and Death of Our Lord and His breathing the Holy Spirit on them on the Resurrection Sunday Evening (cf. St. Paul’s teaching that baptism is a sharing in the Mystery of the Death and Resurrection of Christ).

The Twelve were baptized in the experience of the death and resurrection of Our Lord. Thomas was specifically reconciled to Christ the week after by faith in the experience of meeting the Risen Lord. At Pentecost the completion of this occurred for the Twelve gathered in prayer.

Regarding a baptism of the Blessed Mother, the grace of justification is sanctifying grace, i.e., a grace that makes the recipient holy in the substance of the soul and in its essential faculties of mind and will. This occurred at her Immaculate Conception, therefore no reception of baptism is needed, since she was sanctified at conception. Nowhere in the Tradition is there mention of Mary being baptized. It is a totally novel idea. The reality of Baptism was applied to her soul justifying and sanctifying (the same thing) her and the reality of the Mysteries of Incarnation, Redemption, Pentecost were experienced by her in the events. There is no hint that the Twelve – or the 120 disciples, for that matter – were baptized by the Sacrament. The Sacrament is both sign and reality. The reality was bestowed at Mary’s Immaculate Conception.


#11

The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, not that Mary was born a Catholic with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Adam and Eve, while not conceived by human parents but created by God, were also in a sanctified state while they dwelt in original justice. They too were without the stain of original sin before the Fall. But being in a holy state without the stain of original sin does not exclude the possibility of growing in sanctity. Indeed, Adam and Eve were in friendship with God before the Fall, but they were predestined for an even greater state of being. They were predestined to become fully divinized children of God. In the same manner, Mary too could grow in grace and sanctity as a woman of faith. Mary was immersed into the death and resurrection of Christ, and she was the first person to be born from above into the Kingdom of God. Mary’s union with Christ was so complete at Calvary, that she, as co-redemptrix, is our Mother in the new birth.


#12

[quote=Matt16_18]The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, not that Mary was born a Catholic with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Adam and Eve, while not conceived by human parents but created by God, were also in a sanctified state while they dwelt in original justice. They too were without the stain of original sin before the Fall. But being in a holy state without the stain of original sin does not exclude the possibility of growing in sanctity. Indeed, Adam and Eve were in friendship with God before the Fall, but they were predestined for an even greater state of being. They were predestined to become fully divinized children of God. In the same manner, Mary too could grow in grace and sanctity as a woman of faith. Mary was immersed into the death and resurrection of Christ, and she was the first person to be born from above into the Kingdom of God. Mary’s union with Christ was so complete at Calvary, that she, as co-redemptrix, is our Mother in the new birth.
[/quote]

Did I say something that contradicted this, Matt??


#13

[quote=FCEGM]Did I say something that contradicted this, Matt??
[/quote]

Do you believe that Mary possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at her conception?


#14

[quote=Matt16_18]Do you believe that Mary possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at her conception?
[/quote]

Of course, Matt. Since grace is a participation in the inner life of God, the grace (habitual) of her Immaculate Conception would then find - as in the grace of our Baptism - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


#15

This is where we disagree. I don’t believe Mary possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend upon him in the river Jordan. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception only states that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, not that she was born a Catholic that possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ died on the Cross.CCC 491 … Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
[INDENT]The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.[/INDENT]

Mary was created sanctified and justified without the stain of original sin, just as Adam and Eve were created sanctified and justified in the state of original justice without the stain of original sin. However, even though Adam and Eve were justified and without sin in Paradise, they did NOT possess the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before the Fall.

Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace in original justice, but they were living in friendship with God as beings that were destined for the glory of becoming fully divinized children of God.CCC 398 …Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Before the world was even created, God knew that Mary would have a singular role in bringing men and women to their destiny as divinized children of God.


#16

I am relying largely on the City of God by Mary of Agreda, a book declared by the Church, not to be ‘true’, but to be not in contradiction to the teachings of the Church as I reply to your question.
Starting point: No Mary was not baptized as Baptism is the sacrament which washes away the stain of original sin and restores the gifts of the Holy Spirit lost by the fall of man. As Mary was never a slave to sin and, through the grace of God and His knowledge of her free will determination to know, love and serve Him, her conception was Immaculate, that is free from sin. For these reasons there was no need for the removal of sin nor the restoration of that which was not lost.
Side bar, Mary’s ‘death’. It is, to my knowledge, not taught nor denied by the Church. I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that Mother Church is mute on whether or not Mary died. Death is the product of sin and Mary did not sin and therefore, by her merit, deserved the ommission of death. However, I believe she asked for and received the gift of dying so as to not have her children go where she herself had not been. I stress a choice, not a product nor a natural consequence of having been human.
Christ also was not in need of Baptism as is pointed out in scripture as John the Baptist states he is not worthy to untie the thongs of Jesus’ sandals, a task so lowly as to be customarily left to slaves. Jesus’ baptism was to elevate the sacrament given by John. The baptism of John was from God but was of water only. The removal of original sin. I believe, again perhaps erroneously, that Christ’s baptism imparted the gifts of the Holy Spirit into the sacrament of Baptism.
As to Mary having the Holy Spirit, she was His Spouse. Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit and it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that she conceived Jesus. Mary was not and is not Divine and therefore does not have the capacity to contain the infiniteness of God within herself and thus become God. She was filled to her capacity, which exceeds that of any other mortal person, with the Holy Spirit. I say this of Mary even as I realize that she contained within her womb, Jesus, who is and does contain the infiniteness of God. As to the how is this possible, I can only say that with God all things are possible.


#17

[quote=Matt16_18]This is where we disagree. I don’t believe Mary possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend upon him in the river Jordan. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception only states that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, not that she was born a Catholic that possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ died on the Cross.CCC 491 … Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
[INDENT]The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.[/INDENT]. . . .QUOTE]

Note the words of the Papal Bull, Matt: “by virtue of the merits of
Jesus Christ”. The merits of Christ’s death and resurrection were
applied to Mary at the time of her conception. Thus what we receive by those merits of Christ at Baptism are Mary’s from the first moment of her conception. In the Blessed Mother, however, the graces of the Divine Indwelling are far superior in amount and intensity.

“He endowed her, more than all the angels and saints, with such an abundance of heavenly gifts that she was always completely free from sin, and that, all beautiful and perfect, she appeared in such a plenitude of innocence and holiness, that, except God’s, no greater than hers can be conceived, and that no mind but the mind of God can measure it,” Ineffabilis Deus.

You are perhaps familiar with the late theologian Fr. Reginald
Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.; he wrote an excellent book, The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life, wherein he gives a thorough exposition on Mary’s Immaculate Conception, her divine motherhood and all that flows from these prerogatives of hers.

Here’s an excerpt that should help you:

From the instant of her conception, Mary’s initial plenitude of grace included the infused virtues and the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost, which are the different parts or functions of the spiritual organism. Even from before St. Thomas’s time, habitual grace was called ‘the grace of the virtues and gifts’ because of its connection with them; for the infused virtues, theological and moral, flow from grace (in a degree proportionate to its perfection) as its properties, just as the faculties flow from the substance of the soul. The gifts flow from it also (in a similar proportionate degree) as infused permanent dispositions which make the soul docile to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, somewhat as the sails of a boat make it docile to a favourable wind.

Furthermore, the infused virtues and gifts are linked up with charity which makes their acts meritorious, and they keep pace with it in their growth as do the five fingers of the hand with one another. It may well happen that the gifts of wisdom, understanding and knowledge, which are both speculative and practical, will manifest themselves in one saint more in their practical and in another more in their speculative roles. But normally all seven exist in every soul in the state of grace in a degree proportionate to its charity - the charity itself being proportionate to the sanctifying grace of the soul.

From these principles, which are commonly accepted in treatises on the virtues in general and the gifts, it is usually deduced that Mary had the infused theological and moral virtues and the gifts from the first instance of her conception, and that they flowed from and were proportionate to her initial fulness of grace. Mary - destined even then to be Mother of God and men - could not have been less perfect than Eve was at her creation, Even if she did not receive in her body the privileges of impassibility and immortality, she must have had in her soul all that pertained spiritually to the state of original justice - all, and more, even, since her initial fulness of grace surpassed the grace of all the saints together. Her virtues in their initial state must, therefore, have surpassed the heroic virtues of the greatest saints. her faith, lit by the gifts of wisdom, understanding and knowledge, was unshakably firm and most penetrating. Her hope was unconquerable, proof against presumption and despair alike. Her charity was most ardent. In fine, her initial holiness, which surpassed that of God’s greatest servants, was born with her, and did not cease to grow all through life." pp. 78-79.

[/quote]


#18

#19

says “by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ [Mary was] preserved immune from all stain of original sin”.

It is de fide dogma that Mary was born free from the stain of original sin, just as Adam and Eve were created justified, sanctified and free from sin. If you want to believe that Mary was also born a Catholic with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I won’t say that the Church has said that you CAN’T believe that. Personally, I don’t believe that Mary was never a Jew - I believe that Mary was a Jew that “born again” to become the first Catholic. I understand that many theologians also believe that Mary was born a Catholic – but that is a matter of theological opinion, not Church dogma.
Is it not true that Mary was a Jew by human linage and the Mother of the Church, both Jewish and Catholic, as the Mother of God?

[quote=Matt16_18][Here is my question to you: If the Fall had never of occurred, would Mary have been born as a fully divinized child of God *before
[/quote]

the Word of God became incarnate?
[/quote]

Hypothetical questions are always dangerous territory, but here is my guess. No she would not have exceeded that of her parentage as the fall had not occurred and therefore she would not have had the free will opportunity to join her life to the redemptive suffering of Christ and thereby, through the mercy of God merit the level of the sharing in the Divinity of God that she thus has acquired. If your question is would she have been the person she was with the strong commitment to God that she did and does have, my answer is YES! She was chosen for her role and granted extra graces through her free will offering of self and her desire to be free of ego and humble before God. In short she is who and what her Yes is. To God, Mary Always Replys Yes and so God to Mary Always Replys Yes for she never asks for anything not in the Will of God. Say YES to Yahweh for Yaweh Enlightens Souls.


#20

It is possible she would be baptized as an example to others.


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