Question, sorry


#21

It is de fide dogma that Mary was born free from the stain of original sin, just as Adam and Eve were created justified, sanctified and free from sin. If you want to believe that Mary was also born a Catholic with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I won’t say that the Church has said that you CAN’T believe that. Personally, I don’t believe that Mary was never a Jew - I believe that Mary was a Jew that “born again” to become the first Catholic. I understand that many theologians also believe that Mary was born a Catholic – but that is a matter of theological opinion, not Church dogma.

Matt, you keep insisting on a reading that if Mary was conceived with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that she was necessarily, then, “born a Catholic.” That is an inaccurate understanding. She was, as was her Divine Son, born a Jew. Because of her Immaculate Conception was conceived with - and thus born with - all the graces that one who is baptized into Christ receives. She was “born a Catholic” as much as her Son was. :slight_smile: This is not just my belief, but that of the Church, as we see in the promulgation of the papal bull *Ineffabilis Deus * - the entirety of it. Grace is, as the Catechism tells us (cf. #1997) a participation in the life of God. Mary was full of grace by virtue of the merits of her Son from the first moment of her conception. If there is no “indwelling of the Holy Spirit” there is no participation in the life of God, no grace of such a level as to prepare her to be the Mother of God.

Here is my question to you: If the Fall had never of occurred, would Mary have been born as a fully divinized child of God before the Word of God became incarnate?

As John has already said, that is extremely speculative. Since our first parents had sanctifying grace (de fide) which signifies the indwelling of the Most Holy Trinity in the soul, Mary would have been born - as would have all of us - with sanctifying grace, whether or not the Son of God were to be Incarnated or not. If He was to become Incarnate, then all other graces that prescind from that because of her divine motherhood would likewise have been hers.


#22

[quote=FCEGM]Matt, you keep insisting on a reading that if Mary was conceived with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that she was necessarily, then, “born a Catholic.”
[/quote]

That is correct. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us Catholics and children of God (i.e. it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that brings the state of divine sonship).

…our first parents had sanctifying grace (de fide) which signifies the indwelling of the Most Holy Trinity in the soul …

Where does the Church teach that it is a de fide dogma that Adam and Eve had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If that was the case, then Adam and Eve were Catholics in Paradise!

I accept that the Church teaches that Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace when they dwelt in the state of original justice. But I don’t believe that the Church teaches that the state of original justice is a state where Adam and Eve possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The OT saints were rightly said to be the holy ones of God, but that does not mean that they possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ was incarnate.

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.; wrote an excellent book, The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life:

… it is usually deduced that Mary had the infused theological and moral virtues and the gifts from the first instance of her conception, and that they flowed from and were proportionate to her initial fulness of grace. Mary - destined even then to be Mother of God and men - could not have been less perfect than Eve was at her creation, Even if she did not receive in her body the privileges of impassibility and immortality, she must have had in her soul all that pertained spiritually to the state of original justice …

I accept this conclusion by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. Mary had “in her soul all that pertained spiritually to the state of original justice” which would mean that she possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace at birth. Theologians also teach that while Mary did not possess the preternatural gifts of original justice of impassibility and bodily immortality, she did possess the preternatural gift of lack of concupiscence.

Given that Mary possessed the supernatural grace of sanctification that is proper to the state of original justice, and that she also possessed the preternatural gift of lack of concupiscence, I believe that it is necessary to draw the conclusion of Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange “that Mary had the infused theological and moral virtues and the gifts from the first instance of her conception, and that they flowed from and were proportionate to her **initial ** fulness of grace.” But her initial fulness of grace could be increased, as Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange teaches: Of Our Blessed Lord alone can it be said that He never grew in grace or charity, for he alone received the complete fulness of them both at His conception in consequence of the hypostatic union. … Mary, however, was continually growing in grace all through her life. …

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, Chapter III, “Mary’s Plenitude of Grace at and after the Incarnation”, The Mother of Our Saviour and Our Interior Life

[quote=John-the-Seeker] No she would not have exceeded that of her parentage as the fall had not occurred …
[/quote]

I don’t agree. If the Fall had never occurred, Mary would have been born in the state of original justice with a degree of sanctity that would have exceeded Adam and Eve and every other human being living in the state of original justice. She would also have been the vessel of the Incarnation had the Fall not occurred, and the Incarnation would have raised not only Mary to a whole new level of holiness, the Incarnation would have raised all of humanity to a new level of holiness as well. Because God predestined Mary to be the Mother of God, she was also predestined to be the Mother of the children of God.

A person born in the sanctity of orginal justice would be able to grow in the holiness of God. That is why the Tree of Life was in the center of the Garden. What could the fruit of the Tree of Life give to beings that were already sanctified and immortal except an increase in the divine life of God?


#23

I apologize. I should have gone with my first instincts and refused to speculate on that which has not and will not occur. The Fall did happen. The remedy, although it could have been otherwise, came, as did the first sin, through a women. Mary is the second Eve. The Mother of God Mary through her cooperation with the Will of God has been the human instrument through which Heaven’s Gates were opened for all who choose Heaven.


#24

Is the Incarnation the consequence of sin?

Incarnation in Franciscan Spirituality - Duns Scotus and the meaning of Love

By Seamus Mulholland OFM … In Scotus, the Incarnation is not a contingency plan when the original creative process of God goes awry because of sin. Scotus rejects this notion as too central an emphasis on Man to the extent that the freedom of God to act in love is determined by an external necessity i.e. the redemption from sin. Scotus understands the Incarnation as always being in the mind of God even before the historical and existential physicality of creation itself and the fact of sin.

… Scotus argues that the reason for the Incarnation is Love. The Love of God in himself and the free desire that God has to share that love with another who can love him as perfectly as he loves himself, i.e. the Christ. Scotus says that all the souls that were ever created and about to be created could not, cannot and never will measure up to the supreme love that Christ has for the Trinity. The very fact of the preconception of the Incarnation in Scotus’s thought means that we are co-heirs to this Trinitarian love that Christ has. The Incarnation, then in Duns Scotus, becomes the unrepeatable, unique, and single defining act of God’s love. God, says Scotus, is what he is: we know that God exists and we know what that existence is: Love. Thus, if Man had not sinned Christ would still have come, since this was predetermined from all eternity in the mind of God as the supreme manifestation of his love for the creation he brings about in his free act. The Incarnation is the effect of God freely choosing to end his self-isolation and show who and what He is to that creation. The Incarnation, therefore, in Franciscan spirituality is centred on Love and not sin.


#25

It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes us Catholics and children of God (i.e. it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that brings the state of divine sonship).

Matt, since the Church recognizes that Christian Churches and communions that baptize with the Trinitarian formula even though they are outside full communion with the Church have a true baptism, it could just as well be said that they are Catholics. Do you? Likewise, the Church recognizes that even those outside of any Christian affiliation can attain to the glory of Heaven where all are members of the Catholic Church, so I guess you can refer to some non-Christians as Catholics-to-be.

Where does the Church teach that it is a de fide dogma that Adam and Eve had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If that was the case, then Adam and Eve were Catholics in Paradise!
I accept that the Church teaches that Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace when they dwelt in the state of original justice. But I don’t believe that the Church teaches that the state of original justice is a state where Adam and Eve possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The OT saints were rightly said to be the holy ones of God, but that does not mean that they possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Christ was incarnate.

  1. Adam and Eve, through sanctifying grace, possessed not only original justice; they also possessed original holiness (de fide), and it is the Holy Spirit efficient cause (causa efficiens) of holiness. If He isn’t present there is no holiness.

  2. Sanctifying grace is a participation in the divine nature (sent. cert.) One cannot participate in the divine nature if all three of the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity aren’t present since these Persons in the simplicity of the Godhead cannot be separated: where One is there are the Others.

  3. Thus it is - to get back to your original objection - that the Blessed Virgin Mary, through her Immaculate Conception was endowed with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. “Her most holy soul, more than the souls of all others of God’s creature’s, was filled with the Divine Spirit of Jesus Christ, Mystici Corporis.

I accept this conclusion by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange. Mary had “in her soul all that pertained spiritually to the state of original justice” which would mean that she possessed the supernatural gift of sanctifying grace at birth. Theologians also teach that while Mary did not possess the preternatural gifts of original justice of impassibility and bodily immortality, she did possess the preternatural gift of lack of concupiscence.

Given that Mary possessed the supernatural grace of sanctification that is proper to the state of original justice, and that she also possessed the preternatural gift of lack of concupiscence, I believe that it is necessary to draw the conclusion of Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange “that Mary had the infused theological and moral virtues and the gifts from the first instance of her conception, and that they flowed from and were proportionate to her initial fulness of grace.” But her initial fulness of grace could be increased, as Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange teaches:
Of Our Blessed Lord alone can it be said that He never grew in grace or charity, for he alone received the complete fulness of them both at His conception in consequence of the hypostatic union. … Mary, however, was continually growing in grace all through her life. …

Of course. I never said anything that could possibly be taken as contrary to this. And of course, growing in grace prescinds from the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who nurtures each movement of grace in her soul throughout her life.


#26

[quote=FCEGM]Matt, since the Church recognizes that Christian Churches and communions that baptize with the Trinitarian formula even though they are outside full communion with the Church have a true baptism, it could just as well be said that they are Catholics. Do you?
[/quote]

The Catholic Church recognizes that the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox have maintained valid Sacraments of Initiation, (Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist). The Catholic Church does not lump the EO and OO together with the Protestants that have received only a valid Sacrament of Baptism, and have not received the other two Sacraments of Initiation. I have never seen a Magisterial teaching that says that a Southern Baptist is a Catholic. I have only seen where the Catholic Church teaches that the Southern Baptists who have received a valid baptism are in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.

Likewise, the Church recognizes that even those outside of any Christian affiliation can attain to the glory of Heaven where all are members of the Catholic Church, so I guess you can refer to some non-Christians as Catholics-to-be.

We know that all the saints in Heaven are part of the Church Triumphant – so it must certainly be true that if a pagan or a Protestant ends up in Heaven, he enters Heaven as an ex-pagan or an ex-Protestant as a fully incorporated member of the Catholic Church.

Can an adult Protestant be saved? This is a question that concerns invincible ignorance, not the validity of the baptism that Protestants receive.


#27

[quote=FCEGM]Adam and Eve, through sanctifying grace, possessed not only original justice; they also possessed original holiness (de fide), and it is the Holy Spirit efficient cause (causa efficiens) of holiness.
[/quote]

Of course Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace when they dwelt in the state of Original Justice. And of course it is the Holy Spirit that sanctified Adam and Eve.

You haven’t shown me a teaching of the Magisterium that says that Adam and Eve possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the state of original justice. Do you believe that the Sacrament of Baptism restores us to the state of original justice?

Sanctifying grace is a participation in the divine nature (sent. cert.) One cannot participate in the divine nature if all three of the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity aren’t present since these Persons in the simplicity of the Godhead cannot be separated: where One is there are the Others.

Christ did not come into the world to restore humanity to a state of original justice. It is indeed true that those who receive the sacramental grace of baptism receive the gift of sanctifying grace that makes them reborn as children of God. Children of God that partake in the divine life of the Trinity. But this elevated state of being only became possible for humans after Christ died and was resurrected.

Before the Fall, in the state of original justice, Adam and Eve dwelt in a state of holy friendship with God. Adam and Eve and their progeny (which includes Mary) were predestined by God to be translated from the state of grace of original justice and friendship with God, to a state of grace of fully divinized children of God. That translation into the kingdom of God was dependent upon the Word of God joining his divine nature to our human nature.

And of course, growing in grace prescinds from the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit Who nurtures each movement of grace in her soul throughout her life.

Mary wasn’t born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but she was indeed sanctified at the moment of her conception.

John the Baptist wasn’t immaculately conceived, but he was sanctified in the womb of St. Elizabeth. John the Baptist was born sanctified, grew in sanctity throughout his life, but he never possessed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while he was alive. It was impossible for John the Baptist to be “born from above”, since he died before Christ was glorified on the Cross. This is why Christ says of John the Baptist, “I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28). Those who are the least in the kingdom of God are greater than John the Baptist because the least in the kingdom of God have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the greater supernatural gift that the least in the kingdom of God possess that makes them greater than all the Old Testament saints.

No doubt the Old Testament saints were sanctified in grace by the Holy Spirit, but they were not sanctified in grace in the same way that Christians are, because the Old Testament saints lived in a time before the divine nature of the Word of God was united to human nature in the God-Man, Jesus Christ.

More…


#28

Continued …

glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began
John 17:5

For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
1Cor. 11:7

All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image** from glory to glory**, as from the Lord who is the Spirit.
2Cor 3:18It is true that Mary possessed the greatest degree of sanctification and glory that any human ever possessed at the instant of her Immaculate Conception. But she was always able to increase in grace from her initial fulness of grace, just as John the Baptist was able to grow in grace. Mary proceeded from glory to glory in her progressive growth in sanctity throughout her life. Mary increased in grace from her initial fulness of grace when she progressed from the glory of the Immaculate Conception to the greater glory of the Mother of God as a young teenager. Mary’s Immaculate Heart was always untied to the Sacred Heart of her Son, and she stood with Jesus as he came into his glory on the Cross - the glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Because of the total union of the hearts of Jesus and Mary, when Jesus was glorified on the cross by his Father, Mary too was elevated in glory to actualize in her being the glory of being the Mother of the children of God. "he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother."
John 19:26-27

Mary is the new Eve. Eve, the “woman born of man”, received her life from the side of Adam. Christ is the new Adam, and when Cassius thrust his spear into the side of Jesus, a sword pierced the heart of Mary and she was reborn anew from the side of Jesus into a new and greater glory. Mary stood at the foot of the cross when Christ was speared and she was immersed in the blood and water gushed forth from the side of Jesus. This was Mary’s baptism."Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"
Mark 10:38Mary drank from the cup of suffering that Jesus drank from, and she was baptized when Jesus was baptized on the cross.


#29

Mary’s Immaculate Conception was her Baptism, Matt. Christ is her Savior. The only difference between our baptism and Mary’s is that Mary was Baptized into Christ at the very moment of her conception, whereas we were Baptized (sacramentally) at some point after our birth; so, in the depth of what it means to be a Catholic Mary was “born a Catholic with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.” That’s what being Immaculately Conceived means. There is no being “immaculate” (“without spot”) apart from Christ or His Church. Ergo, Mary could only be “immaculate” if she was conceived IN Christ as a member of His Body.

As for Adam and Eve, they, too, were created immaculately in Christ, through Whom “all things were made” (John 1:3-5). They only departed from this Divine unity when they sinned. In essence, we can say that the Church (the Covenant People of God) actually began with Adam and Eve, and was perfectly restored to humanity by the New Adam, Jesus Christ.

Look, how can one be without sin unless one possesses an indwelling of the Spirit??? That makes no sense. Of course Mary had an indwelling of the Spirit (as newly Baptized people do); that is, in the sense of sanctifying grace. It is true that Mary grew in holiness throughout her life, and she is still growing in holiness in Heaven today since Mary is not God and she will never attain the full holiness of God, but continues to grow closer to Him for all eternity. That is, as the Eastern Christians rightly teach, Mary’s “deification” will never be completed. But, the distinction that you make between sanctifying grace and an indwelling of the Spirit is totally alien to both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology. Yours is not an Apostolic belief.

The meaning of Ineffabilis Deus is that Mary possessed a mysterious Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which prevented all stain of sin) from the first moment of her conception. One cannot have such “singular grace” from God except in and through the Holy Spirit. In Luke 1:28, the angel calls Mary “Kecharitomenae” in Greek, which Jerome translated into Latin as “Gratia plena” - that is, “FULL of grace.” The Greek can also be rendered “Perfectly graced.” Clearly, one cannot be “FULL” of grace without an indwelling of the Spirit; nor can one be “perfected” in grace without an indwelling of the Spirit.

The theological stumbling block for you here - the question you cannot answer - is "How can someone be free of Original Sin and full of grace without having an indwelling of the Spirit - that is, without being (mysteriously) baptized into Jesus Christ? According to Apostolic Christianity, he or she cannot. For to say that one can be freed from sin apart from Christ’s Baptismal grace (an indwelling of the Spirit) is to say that Mary was saved from sin apart from Jesus Christ! Obviously, this is not what the Church believes.

When Adam and Eve were created, all creation had an indwelling of the Spirit. We see this from Gen. 1:2 (where “the Spirit of God moved over the waters” [of primordial chaos - the unformed earth]) on. Indeed, in Gen. 6:3, as God prepares to destroy the world in the Flood, He says, “My Spirit will not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years.” This verse is meant to connect to the previous chapter (Gen 5), where we see the line from Adam to Noah dying at earlier and earlier ages. This is meant to reflect how the Spirit of God is being withdrawn almost completely from Creation as man becomes more and more alienated from God by sin. This process, of course, began with the Fall, when our first parents lost sanctifying grace and were expelled from the Garden- that is, cut off from the Tree of Life.

continued. . .


#30

You earlier stated:

Adam and Eve possessed sanctifying grace in original justice, but they were living in friendship with God as beings that were destined for the glory of becoming fully divinized children of God. CCC 398 …Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory.

You are confusing sanctification (a principal of Latin theology) with deification (a principal of Greek theology). That’s a no-no. :slight_smile: This is probably the root of your contradiction. But, without getting too deep into the two theological traditions, here is a distinction, I’m sure you will agree, between how the Spirit comes to dwell in a person via the Sacrament of Baptism vs. how He comes to dwell in a person via the Sacrament of Confirmation. It is true that Adam and Eve were destined for something greater than the state in which they were created. They were created to “partake of the Divine nature” itself (2 Peter 1:4) - the very desire that the serpent used to tempt them (the only thing they lacked). But, even though they lacked this perfect participation in the Divine nature, it does NOT mean that they lacked an indwelling of the Spirit in the sense of sanctifying grace. You create an obstacle for yourself, since you imply that sanctifying grace can exist apart from the Spirit. It cannot. The Spirit is the One Who Sanctifies; apart from Him, there is no sanctifiyng grace. That should be obvious.

Mary wasn’t born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but she was indeed sanctified at the moment of her conception.

Balderdash. I am saying precisely what the Church is saying. You are twisting theological language in order to arrive at your unreasonable view. Again, how can one possess sanctifying grace apart from an indwelling of the Spirit??? The Catholic Church does not recognize the possibility of such a thing. Mary was sanctified by the merits of Jesus Christ. Those merits could only reach her via the Spirit --that is, via a mysterious Baptism into Christ. To say otherwise is alien to Catholic Christianity.

Something else from an earlier post of yours:

Personally, I don’t believe that Mary was never a Jew - I believe that Mary was a Jew that “born again” to become the first Catholic.

More correctly, Mary never ceased being a Jew when she became a Catholic. The Catholic Church is not a new religion, but is, in essence, the true Israel, the “Israel of God” as St. Paul calls it in Gal. 6:16. IOW, the Church of Jesus Christ is, essentially, that remnant of Old Testament Israel that accepted the Messiah when He came. These Jewish followers of “the Way” (as the Church is called in Acts) then welcomed Gentiles into their communion, and those Gentiles ended up becoming the cultural majority in the Church. But, the heart and core of the Church is still thoroughly Jewish; and Mary herself is that heart and core. This is why the “Woman clothed with the sun” in Rev. 12:1-3 is both Mary, and the Church, and Israel. These are all the same thing. Modern, non-Christian Jews are not the true Israel (although they possess a firm kinship with it). The Catholic Church is Israel, the only direct and true heir of Abraham (Gal 3:29, Romans 9:6-8, etc.).

continued. . .


#31

. . .So at the instance and request of the bishops mentioned above, with the chapters of the churches, and of King Philip and his kingdoms, we renew the Constitutions and Decrees issued by the Roman Pontiffs, our predecessors, especially Sixtus IV,[8] Paul V,[9] and Gregory XV,[10] in favor of the doctrine asserting that the soul of the Blessed Virgin, in its creation and infusion into the body, was endowed with the grace of the Holy Spirit and preserved from original sin;. . .

. . .This sublime and singular privilege of the Blessed Virgin, together with her most excellent innocence, purity, holiness and freedom from every stain of sin, as well as the unspeakable abundance and greatness of all heavenly graces, virtues and privileges – these the Fathers beheld in that ark of Noah, which was built by divine command and escaped entirely safe and sound from the common shipwreck of the whole world;[15] in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned’[16] in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully;[17] in that impregnable tower before the enemy, from which hung a thousand bucklers and all the armor of the strong;[18] in that garden enclosed on all sides, which cannot be violated or corrupted by any deceitful plots;[19] as in that resplendent city of God, which has its foundations on the holy mountains;[20] in that most august temple of God, which, radiant with divine splendors, is full of the glory of God;[21] and in very many other biblical types of this kind. In such allusions the Fathers taught that the exalted dignity of the Mother of God, her spotless innocence and her sanctity unstained by any fault, had been prophesied in a wonderful manner. . . .

. . .To these praises they have added very noble words. Speaking of the conception of the Virgin, they testified that nature yielded to grace and, unable to go on, stood trembling. The Virgin Mother of God would not be conceived by Anna before grace would bear its fruits; it was proper that she be conceived as the first-born, by whom “the first-born of every creature” would be conceived. They testified, too, that the flesh of the Virgin, although derived from Adam, did not contract the stains of Adam, and that on this account the most Blessed Virgin was the tabernacle created by God himself and formed by the Holy Spirit, truly a work in royal purple, adorned and woven with gold, which that new Beseleel[26] made. They affirmed that the same Virgin is, and is deservedly, the first and especial work of God, escaping the fiery arrows the evil one; that she is beautiful by nature and entirely free from all stain; that at her Immaculate Conception she came into the world all radiant like the dawn. For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness. . . Ineffabilis Deus./QUOTE]

FINIS


#32

[quote=FCEGM]… how can one be without sin unless one possesses an indwelling of the Spirit???
[/quote]

Adam and Eve were without sin in Paradise when they were living in friendship with God, but they were not partakers of the divine nature in the state of Original Justice. They were, however, predestined for the glory of possessing the uncreated Gift of the Holy Spirit abiding in their souls (i.e they were predestined for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit).… The Holy Ghost is the uncreated Gift, infinitely superior to that of sanctifying grace and of charity, superior to every degree of charity and every degree of glory.

The Three Ages of the Interior Life
Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.

It is true that Adam and Eve were destined for something greater than the state in which they were created. They were created to “partake of the Divine nature” itself (2 Peter 1:4) - the very desire that the serpent used to tempt them (the only thing they lacked). But, even though they lacked this perfect participation in the Divine nature, it does NOT mean that they lacked an indwelling of the Spirit in the sense of sanctifying grace.

I am glad that you agree with me that Adam and Eve were NOT partakers of the divine nature when they dwelt in the state of Original Justice! :slight_smile: Adam and Eve did possess sanctifying grace in Paradise, and I have never said otherwise. While Adam and Eve were sanctified in Paradise, they did not, however, possess the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that gives us our divine filiation and makes us partakers in the divine nature of God both here on earth and in Heaven.

But, the distinction that you make between sanctifying grace and an indwelling of the Spirit is totally alien to both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology.

Please show me a document of the Magisterium that explicitly says that Adam and Eve had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Paradise. Supernatural adoption, divine filiation, rebirth as the children of God - these are synonymous with deification:Supernatural Adoption

There will ever be between our adoption and the filiation of Jesus the infinite distance which separates created grace from hypostatical union. And yet, that intimate and mysterious communion with Christ, and through Him with God, is the glory of our adopted sonship: “And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them – I in them and thou in me” (John 17:22, 23). … The Fathers dwell on this privilege which they are pleased to style deification. …

The Catholic Encyclopedia

The theological stumbling block for you here - the question you cannot answer - is "How can someone be free of Original Sin and full of grace without having an indwelling of the Spirit - that is, without being (mysteriously) baptized into Jesus Christ?

Please show me a document of the Magisterium that teaches that Adam and Eve were baptized into Christ before Christ became incarnate! Adam and Eve were free of the stain of original sin without possessing the supernatural gift of divine filiation.

You are confusing sanctification (a principal of Latin theology) with deification (a principal of Greek theology).

Please explain to me the difference between a Christian’s sanctification and his deification. :stuck_out_tongue:


#33

[quote=FCEGM] When Adam and Eve were created, all creation had an indwelling of the Spirit. We see this from Gen. 1:2 (where “the Spirit of God moved over the waters” [of primordial chaos - the unformed earth])
[/quote]

You are confusing God’s “presence of immensity” (God’s omnipresence) with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture teaches us that God is present in every creature by a general presence, often called the presence of immensity. We read in particular in Ps. 138:7: “Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from Thy face? If I ascend into heaven, Thou art there; if I descend into hell, Thou art present.” …

Holy Scripture does not, however, speak only of this general presence of God in all things; it also speaks of a special presence of God in the just. … The official teaching of the Church on this point has been stated even more precisely in our times by Leo XIII in his encyclical on the Holy Ghost, Divinun illud munus (May 9, 1897), in which the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity in the souls of the just is thus described:[indent]It is well to recall the explanation given by the Doctors of the Church of the words of Holy Scripture. They say that God is present and exists in all things “by His power in so far as all things are subject to His power; by His presence, inasmuch as all things are naked and open to His eyes; by His essence, inasmuch as He is present to all as the cause of their being” … Moreover, God by grace resides in the just soul as in a temple, in a most intimate and peculiar manner. From this proceeds that union of affection by which the soul adheres most closely to God, more so than the friend is united to his most loving and beloved friend, and enjoys God in all fullness and sweetness.

Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven …The Three Ages of the Interior Life

Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. [/INDENT]

Again, how can one possess sanctifying grace apart from an indwelling of the Spirit?

How was it that the Old Testament Saints were sanctified without possessing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?


#34

You are confusing God’s “presence of immensity” (God’s omnipresence) with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Nope.

FINIS


#35

FCEGM:“When Adam and Eve were created, all creation had an indwelling of the Spirit.”Pope Leo XIII, *Divinun illud munus *:“God is present and exists in all things” = presence of immensity

“God by grace resides in the just soul as in a temple, in a most intimate and peculiar manner” = indwelling of the Holy Spirit

“All creation” has the presence of immensity.

Only the partakers of the Divine Nature of God have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


#36

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