Questions about the concept of Predestination. Help needed please. Thanks! :)

Greetings Everybody! :slight_smile:

How are all of you?

I really need help with the concept of predestination please. Can everybody help me please? Thanks so much! :slight_smile:

I believe in predestination because God is 100% sovereign, that he is in 100% control over and has 100% power over all things, everything, and anything that he created, and that he is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing. I do not know exactly what type of concept of predestination the I believe in but, I do know that my very own concept of predestination was greatly influenced by Christianity’s concept, many Christian denominations’s concepts, other religions’s concepts (For a example, like Islam.), and other religious denominations’s concepts of predestination. I know that I blended many aspects of many different concepts of predestnation (I speacifically not do not exactly which concepts, I do not know speacifically which religions and religious denominations that I got these concepts from, and exactly which religion and/or religious denomination that I am the most alike when it come to my very own concept of predestination. Can all of you please try your very best to help me figure things out please? Thanks so much for everything as always! I really appreciate it! ) to make my very own concept of predestination.

  1. I believe that God is 100% sovereign. (For a example: God has already has 100% predestined, planned, and is indirectly controlling everything that has happened in the past, that is happening in the present, and that will happen in the future, is indirectly controlling people, organisms, spirits (Angels and Demons.), objects, nature, and etc by indirectly controlling them, their free will, their actions, their thoughts, and etc, is indirectly controlling everything that happens in Heaven or Hell to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals when they achieve salvation or damnation, is indirectly controlling everything that happens to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) in order for them to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, and etc.).
  2. I believe that God has 100% control over and 100% power over free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc because he created free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God has 100% control over and 100% power over the creation and destruction of, the giving of and the taking away of, the “life” of and the “death” of, all the aspects and qualities of, and etc of free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc.).
  3. I believe that God is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing about the past, present, and future, will free, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God already 100% knows about everything that happened in that past, is happening in the present, and is going to happen in the future, he already 100% knows about everything that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals did in the past, are doing in the present, and are going to be doing the future, he already 100% knows if people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals already qualify for and have achieved salvation or damnation, he already 100% knows which people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals are his chosen elect and are predestined to achieve salvation and damnation, and etc.).
  4. I believe that in the Christian saying that “Once saved, always saved!” because I believe in predestination. (For a example: God already predestined people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) to achieve salvation or damnation ever sense the very beginning of time as we know it, before their spirits and their bodies were created, and before they were born. I believe that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) who meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation are (In a way already.) saved or dammed but, if they do not and no longer meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation up until they die or until to judgement day then, they are (In a way.) no longer saved or dammed but, they were also never ever saved or dammed in the first place, that they already predestined to be saved or dammed in the first place no matter what, and they never ever God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed in the very first place.).
  5. Because I believe that God is 100% sovereign, that he is in 100% control over and has 100% power over all things, everything, and anything that he created, and that he is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing. I believe techinally we never ever had/have free will, we can not and do not have any power and control over our own destinies, we can not choose to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, we can not choose to be God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed, and etc because of everything that I just said above but, in a way we do have free will, we do have power and control over our own destinies, we can choose to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, we can choose to be God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed, and etc because God is not directly controlling our very own destinies, free will, actions, thoughts, everything that happens to us, and etc.

Thanks so much for all of your help and for everything everybody! I really appreciate it! Peace! :slight_smile:

Love,
VikingGirlTBird! :slight_smile:

God gave us free will, because He does not force anyone to serve Him, hence the people who don’t. :slight_smile:
also, I had this question asked of me before. It is true that God is all-knowing. He knows exactly how our lives will go. But what He knows, I do not know. You can not know. So we should never content ourselves with the assumption that we are already “reserved” a spot somewhere. We can end up in heaven or pugatory, or hell, as God knows–but it will be under our own lives, i.e., how we respond to the life God has laid out for us.
Does that make sense?
Imagine a girl who tries out for a big dance group. But she says, oh, God knows how I’ll do. Why should I even try?
We would think she’s one lightbulb short. :wink: Multiply that example, and see how much sillier it is to apply it to what happens to us here, and in the next life.
Hope that helps!

I think you are talking about double predestination.
So, let me ask you this: do you believe that God intentionally allows people to be born, be baptized, practice a faith in Him, knowing all the time they will not be saved because He predestines them to damnation?

Jon

Extremely unfortunitly, yes. But, I also believe that he is doing this for a extremely good reason, even though I do not know exactly what that reason is yet.

This is one of the beliefs that would prevent me from ever being Reformed. “Baptism now saves you”, “For God so loved the world, that whosover believes in Him…”, “he that believes and is baptized…”. You say it is “extremely unfortunate”. With all respect, I say it is extremely unscriptural.

Jon

Extreme Calvinism was the last stop I made before returning to the Catholic Church. Kinda tells you the effect that doctrine had on me. :wink:

Predestination to me is very unscriptural because it is stated in 1 Timothy 2 that God wills all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. If this was not an option, then all would be saved (no damnation) and we would all know full knowledge of truth, but we don’t. Not only that, but by reason alone you can tell that forcing someone to love you is not real love and you would not really feel loved. Also, why would God make those, that He wants to love Him, abandon Him. This seems contrary to logic and to the essence of God.

I believe that we have free will, and that we can freely choose to love God or to deny him. And God, being all knowing who can see past, present, and future, can still use those that deny and disobey Him to accomplish His Will.

Could it be that a person is both completely pre-destined to be in heaven or hell while at the same time having the gift of free-will to fully choose their salvation/damnation?

It seems to me that God knows exactly every decision we are going to make in our lives, while at the same time giving us the full free will to make those decisions. I don’t see why we can’t both be pre-destined and yet have our destiny’s be left completely up to us! :slight_smile:

Something interesting is the fatima revelation that was made to Lucy. It does seem to illustrate that God does know who is going to be in heaven and hell long before they die:
Source - fatima.org/essentials/facts/1917appar.asp

Lucy describes the apparition in this way:

Then Our Lady said to us: **‘Do not be afraid. I will do you no harm.’ **

‘Where is Your Grace from?’ I asked Her.

‘I am of Heaven.’

‘What does Your Grace want of me?’

‘I have come to ask you to come here for six months in succession, on the 13th day, at this same hour. Later on, I will tell you who I am and what I want. Afterwards, I will return here yet a seventh time.’

‘Shall I go to Heaven too?’

‘Yes, you will.’

‘And Jacinta?’

‘Also.’

‘And Francisco?’

‘Also, but he will have to say many Rosaries.’

I’ve had the same question week after week, and it made me craaaazzzy. Then, all of a sudden, when I randomly reread the situation of Mose and the Pharao and the ten pleaques, I understood (I think, lol) Look at what happened back then. God knew that the Pharao wouldn’t let the people go after he sent the first pleague. The scripture says so. The Pharao, however, was given the chance of letting the people go. God knew he wouldn’t, but he did have a choice. So God sent chance after chance, and he knew that only after the tenth pleague, the Pharao would let the people go. So the Pharao had a choice and he could have let them go, it was just that God already knew that the Pharao wouldn’t.

I thought Calvinism teaches that Christians and non-Christians are predestined to be saved or dammed, regardless of whether they heard of Jesus Christ, Christianity, God, The Holy Bible, salvation, and etc, that they truly accept Jesus Christ as their only personal savior, that he died for them as individuals and for all of their personal sins, and that they really promised to become better Christians, try their very best to do good Christian deeds, to try their very best to avoid commiting sins, and to be truely extremely sorry for all the sins that they commited.

For example,

  1. A Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and does good deeds is predestined to go to Hell because God predestined it.
  2. A Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior but, commits horrible sins and is not truely sorry for what they have done is predestined to Heaven because God predestined it.
  3. A Non-Christian who has not heard of Jesus Christ or has not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior but, does good deeds is predestined to go to Hell because God predestined it.
  4. A Non-Christian who has not heard of Jesus Christ or had not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and does horrible sins and is not truely sorry for what they done is predestined to Heaven because God predestined it.
  5. Unbaptized babies (Who have not heard of Jesus Christ, have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and has not done everything good or bad.) are either predestined to go to Heaven or Hell because God predestined it.
  6. People with certain mental disorders and physical disorders (who are capible of.) that have not heard of Jesus Christ, have not accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and have done good acts and commited only venial sins are either predestined to go to Heaven or Hell because God predestined it.

It is almost like saying Hilter is in Heaven and Mother Teresa is in Hell, regardless whether the heard of Jesus Christ, accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, have done good deeds, tried to avoid sin, and are truely sorry for what they have done, are predestined to go to Heaven or Hell all because God predestined it. That is alot more scarier, horrible, and unfair than my concept of predestination almost. In a way, my version of predestination gives people a fighting chance. Calvinism, I think does not because of what I just said above. The Puritans and other calvinists used to be obcessed over their concept of predestination and whether they would be saved or not. It used to scare people and even their priests half to death especially when they were near death. Calvinism’s descendant, Presbyterianism, has come along way from Calvinism’s concept of predestination though because of change and etc. By the way, I could be wrong a Calvinism, Presbyterianism, and their concepts of predestination though and I really did not mean to offend anything even if it sounded that way. I am very sorry.

I agree with you! :wink:

  1. God is 100% sovereign. God has already has 100% predestined, planned, and is indirectly controlling everything and all things that he created and exists. (For example: God is directly controlling and has power over a people’s individual plan’s (People’s individual actions and thoughts.) to meet the requirements and the qualities that it takes for Christians to qualify for and to achieve salvation or damnation. It is like God directly controlling the vehical, airplane, or boat for a individual salvation or damnation by actually making the wheels turn, the propellars turn, the jet engines sucking in air and rushing out the back of themselves, or the rutters turn.) God’s sovereignty is more of God directly controlling and having power over everything.

  2. God has 100% control over and 100% power over everything. God has 100% control over and 100% power over the creation and destruction of, the giving of and the taking away of, the “life” of and the “death” of, all the aspects and qualities of, and etc of everything and of all things that he created and exists. (For a example: God has direct controll and power over what makes the requirements and qualities that it takes for Christians to qualify for and to achieve salvation or damnation. It is like God is indirectly controlling the vehical, airplane, or boat for a individual’s salavation or damnation by making them have wheels, wings, rutters, jet engines, small or big body frames, weigh light and heavy, and etc. God having 100% control over and 100% power over everything without directly becoming involved with everything is more of God indirectly controlling and having power over everything.

Both concepts involve God having 100% control over and power over everything and both concepts do ideed connect to each other but, one is alot more direct than the other.

God saids that he is 100% sovereign, there for, God must have predestined everybody to either acheive salvation or damnation for everybody because he would be lying and would not be 100% sovereign if this was not true. He does not lie or change but, he always tells the truth and does not change. I can not see people believing in God’s sovereignty without believeing in predestination or believeing in one without the other. So, anyways, that is where I am coming from, whether it does makes sence to me and to other people or not. :shrug:

This issue is very personal to me (suffering), and I’d have to say that I don’t understand it. It seems from studying Molinism – the particular Catholic way of understanding God’s sovereignty that I subscribe to – that God is 100% sovereign, but accomplishes that by choosing which world with its free will choices to create in the first place. The concept of middle knowledge states that God knows all possible worlds and chose from the ones that were actually feasible, and then made the best possible one. And basically we have complete free will, but He already knew how the dominoes would fall before He made us. Kind of an inevitable conclusion, no? Molinism can bend towards both conditional and unconditional election, both are valid opinions for us. Either way, yes, God knows exactly who makes it and who doesn’t. We’re not allowed to believe that we’re surely the elect while we’re alive unless given a private revelation though.

My dear friend in Christ;

Beutiful POST #1] but much too long to permit it and a reply:)

Simply put “Predestination” is BOTH a Moral and Theological impossibility:rolleyes: WHY?

  1. It would make God to be imperfect and unfairly judgmental [IMPOSSIBLE]

  2. It denies the very manner and purpose God made US [Gen.1:26-27] “In His Image”

3 HOW does humaity emmulate our God?

By having some similar but NOT as complete and perfect as God atributes.

**CONSIDER: **
There are MANY BILLIONS of created planets, stars and galaxies
BUT ONLY ONE can be proven to support the life forms we know of: PLANET EARTH

On Planet Earth there are many hundreds of thousands of living things: BUT ONLY ONE
HUMANITY Alone emulates God with a “mind,” “intellect and FREEWILL” all permnately attached to our SOULS [the animator of life]. And ONLY humanity alone can LOVE!

**WHY? **

Isaiah 43 Verese 7 AND 21:
“every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” … 21*** “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise”.***

These attributes like God Himself are SPIRITUAL THINGS. …Try to quantify for us your “FREEWILL”. Can’t be done, yet there is no doubt that everyone has one.

Humanity ALONE is CREATED by God and For God that we MIGHT freely choose to know Him and then freely choose to Love, serve and fully OBEY Him. This is God’s Desire BUT OUR FREEWILL CHOICE.

  1. “Predestination” by necessity must deny God His absolutely needing to be “Perfect” in every way

  2. It denies HOW God made humaniity ALONE with the attributes capable of loving, and of freely chooing to love or hate God [no middle ground here].

  3. Because predestination would deny God’s perfection and mans’ **absolute right **to freely choose it is a MORAL and THEOLOGICAL impossibility.

  4. NOTE: the FACT that God, despite being all-knowing and Perfect does NOT mean, God is permited or allowed to CHOOSE FOR US where will spend eternity. WE alone MUST by using our freewill, intellects and minds choose to speand eternity in the palce of OUR choosing. “KNOWING IS NOT DOING or Causing.” That is Devine Providence.:thumbsup: God can and does offer GRACE but humaity can choose to reject it.

I pray this simple explaination clears up your thoughts on this matter?

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

Wow, that is pretty cool concept and way of thinking! I really it but, I am not sure if I reallly agree with it just yet. Thanks so much for sharing it with me! :wink:

Apart from Christianity, it’s different denominations, and the Holy Bible greatly influencing my concepts of God’s sovereignty and predestination. Islam, the Holy Quran, and the Hadith also greatly influence my concepts of God’s sovereignty and predestination. I noticed that Islam more so empathises and stresses God’s sovereignty and predestination a little bit more so than Christianity. To me, Islam’s concepts of God’s sovereignty and predestination most of the time makes a little bit more sence to me than Christianity’s concepts of God’s sovereignty and predestination.

Anyways, thanks so much for sharing Molinism with me! :slight_smile:

My fellow friend in Christ,

Thanks so much! :wink:

I understand a little bit where you are coming from. :wink:

When I was little and not introduced to the concept of God’s sovereignty and later, a another concept of God’s sovereignty called, predestination; I believed that all of us had been given free will even, though God is all knowing. But as soon I was introduced to the concepts of God’s sovereignty and predestination (A form of God’s sovereignty.), it made perfect sense that predestination could not even exist without God’s sovereignty. Christianity, the Holy Bible, and God really confuses me because it is like they are contraditing themselves and etc. I know God does not lie, always tells the truth, does not change, is perfect, and all that but, still… why not be less confusing and more understandable by being a little bit more clearing, do not leave things up to loose interpretations, being a little bit more firm, and etc. :blush: I wish that all of them were not so confusing at times and etc. :frowning:

May God bless you too always! Amen! :slight_smile:
Peace!

Pre-destination implies that it was planned beforehand where we’d go instead of us making our choices in our lives and having our destination be the outcome. The only way pre-destination would work with free will would be if our souls existed before we lived on this earth and chose at that moment whether we wanted heaven or hell, similar to the angels. But we are not like the angels.

And yes, God knows past, present, and future, so he knows where we are going, but we still chose where we wanted to go. It wasn’t pre-destined, it is a choice.

So, in the case of the fatima children, when our Holy Mother revealed to Lucy that she would be going to heaven was there any possible way that Sr. Lucy could not have died in a state of sanctifying grace? (thus, making our Holy Mother’s prediction wrong)

What about Judas’ betrayal of Jesus… was there any possible way that Judas could have decided not to betray Christ after Jesus foretold of his betrayal? (making Christ’s prophecy incorrect)

I ask, because both of these instances appear to be cases where pre-destination exists and appears to conflict with the concept of free-will (unless we acknowledge that these people “freely” chose to carry out the exact actions necessary to fulfill the predictions that were revealed to them… that is, both free-will and predestination exist and are mutually exclusive concepts).

hi vikingGirl, i think your idea of predestination is catholic theology strech till it was disfigured. Two words come to mind ‘reformed theogy’. What you teach is either exact calvinism or one of it variants. Catholic can relate to the all-knowing, seeing sovereign God but i certainly cant relate to the God who made puppets and called them humans. I believe he created man with some ability to chose, to turn to him, to turn away for him, i believe he pursues man again and again to help him realise his full potential, he predestined man, i dont believe he “predetermined” man.

  1. I believe that God is 100% sovereign. (For a example: God has already has 100% predestined, planned, and is indirectly controlling everything that has happened in the past, that is happening in the present, and that will happen in the future, is indirectly controlling people, organisms, spirits (Angels and Demons.), objects, nature, and etc by indirectly controlling them, their free will, their actions, their thoughts, and etc, is indirectly controlling everything that happens in Heaven or Hell to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals when they achieve salvation or damnation, is indirectly controlling everything that happens to people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) in order for them to qualify for and achieve salvation or damnation, and etc.).

i donot believe this, it makes God the “controller” of every bodies freewill. In essence it says when i sin God is reponsible because he is the controller, man seem to have a new excuse when he refuses to do what is right, the excuse is “GOD CAUSED IT”. I believe God sometimes allows evil for some good, but i dont believe in a all-loving God who controls everybody and controls some to offend him and control some to love him. And then he sends those he caused to offend him to hell. Well that God you seem to talk about is seem to lack justice, almost a sadist.

  1. I believe that God has 100% control over and 100% power over free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc because he created free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God has 100% control over and 100% power over the creation and destruction of, the giving of and the taking away of, the “life” of and the “death” of, all the aspects and qualities of, and etc of free will, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc.).

yeah, God can exercise control over human freewill, but having power to do something is not the same as exercising that power. For example I believe that God can(has the power) distroy the human soul but i dont believe he uses the power.

  1. I believe that God is 100% all knowing, all seeing, and all hearing about the past, present, and future, will free, salvation and damnation, predestination, and etc. (For a example: God already 100% knows about everything that happened in that past, is happening in the present, and is going to happen in the future, he already 100% knows about everything that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals did in the past, are doing in the present, and are going to be doing the future, he already 100% knows if people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals already qualify for and have achieved salvation or damnation, he already 100% knows which people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) as individuals are his chosen elect and are predestined to achieve salvation and damnation, and etc.).

yeah he does, he the present past and future are “present” to God so he knows who and who will be saved (predestination) but i dont believe he chose from all time to control some to sin and others to virtue, i donot believe in predetermination.

  1. I believe that in the Christian saying that “Once saved, always saved!” because I believe in predestination. (For a example: God already predestined people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) to achieve salvation or damnation ever sense the very beginning of time as we know it, before their spirits and their bodies were created, and before they were born. I believe that people and spirits (Angels and Demons.) who meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation are (In a way already.) saved or dammed but, if they do not and no longer meet the requirements and qualifications of achieving salvation or damnation up until they die or until to judgement day then, they are (In a way.) no longer saved or dammed but, they were also never ever saved or dammed in the first place, that they already predestined to be saved or dammed in the first place no matter what, and they never ever God’s chosen elect or God’s chosen dammed in the very first place.).

i think you are confusing predestination for predetermination.
Peace

What you are mentioning isn’t pre-destination, it is telling them the future. Telling them what the future holds isn’t creating that future for them. As I mentioned in my previous post, pre-destination implies that it was made to be that way. There is a difference between knowing the future and making the future. Does that make sense?

In telling person A the future, person B is telling person A something that is unavoidable, something that is going to happen because they have seen it happen or have been told by someone higher than them (God) that it will happen. This is not person B telling person A something that they are going to make happen or have altered situations so that it will happen.

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