Questions about when people get "saved"


#984

Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn’)
Short Definition: an earnest, earnest-money
Definition: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.
http://biblehub.com/greek/728.htm

How do you think the Catholic version departs from Strong’s definition of the word?


#985

Certainly it is essential that we understand each individual passage in the light of the whole. What is different, tgG, is that you interpret the passages wearing Reformed glasses, while Catholics interpret it through the lens of Sacred Tradition.

You still have to explain why God allowed His Church to be off track for 1500 years. Why did the powerful Jesus evident in the book of Revelation fail to do what He promised? Did he have the flu for a millenia and a half?


#986

Fair enough, but how do you choose which translations are correct? Do you read them all or just pick out the ones that fit your theology?

You listed a few, but we also have a longer list that doesn’t use the word guarantee…

KJ21 the pledge of our inheritance
ASV earnest of our inheritance
BRG earnest of our inheritance
CSB The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance
CEB The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance
DARBY earnest of our inheritance
DLNT pledge of our inheritance
DRA pledge of our inheritance
EHV the down payment of our inheritance
EXB That Holy Spirit is the ·guarantee [down payment; deposit] ·that we will receive
GNV earnest of our inheritance
HCSB He is the down payment of our inheritance
JUB earnest of our inheritance
KJV earnest of our inheritance
AKJV earnest of our inheritance
LEB down payment of our inheritance
NABRE the first installment
NASB a pledge of our inheritance
NET down payment of our inheritance
NMB the earnest of our inheritance
NRSV pledge of our inheritance
NRSVA pledge of our inheritance
NRSVACE pledge of our inheritance
NRSVCE pledge of our inheritance
WEB pledge of our inheritance
WE The Holy Spirit is the first part of what we are to receive from God
WYC earnest of our heritage
YLT earnest of our inheritance

Most of these aren’t even Catholic Bibles.

The interesting part of all of this is that you have to pick and choose which translation you are willing to accept and which one you won’t.

From the Catholic perspective we read every single one of these translations and say AMEN!

We see no conflict in any of the ones I posted or the ones you posted. The reason being is because we all know the definition of a guarantee.

A guarantee is a formal assurance or promise that certain conditions shall be fulfilled relating to a transaction.

All guarantees have fine print, you can’t take your car and use it for something that it wasn’t intended to be used for then expect it to be covered under the bumper to bumper guarantee. In the same way you can’t be born again and then use your body and sin in ways God did not intend to use your body for, then expect to be guaranteed salvation (without repenting first).

Jesus told us what His fine print was…

Matthew 24:13
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
22 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Romans 2:6-7
6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Galatians 6:7-9
7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

God Bless


#987

To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no dragging into heaven. This expression is found nowhere in scripture that I can think of.


#988

I thought I answered this. Okay… What is 1500 years to God? it is a blink of an eye. Please do not forget how the nation of Israel had no prophet in their land from Malachi to John the Baptist. Over 400 years.

John the Baptist was the Luther of his day announcing the coming reformation. And of course the Pharisees resisted that reformation even though God had not spoke in such a long time and the fact that their was no Ark of the covenant in the holy place. This had been the case for many years.

It is not about God unable to make the changes, or not being powerful enough. It is about God fulfilling His promise according to His pre-ordained time.


#989

I’m coming into this post not too sure what the point is here. But I think I get it. If I’m off the mark MT, I’m sure you will let me know.

The earnest of our inheritance is not so much that we must complete the work as you think. He gave us a down-payment called the Holy Spirit, and will finish the work at His coming. But in doing so, God is always the giver and not the recipient. In the salvation process we are always the recipient. This concept can be found in Romans chapter 8 where Paul offered a kind of chain of salvation in a process.

v29 "for whom He foreknew, he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. v30 Moreover whom He predestined, these he also called, whom he called, these he also JUSTIFIED, and whom he justified, these He also glorified. Ro. 8:29-30

Those He foreknew, he predestined. And those He predestined, He called, and whom those He called is justified, and whom He justified, He glorified.

Foreknew
predestined
called
justified
glorified. … in that order. but if you notice, Paul left out a work that requires a contribution from us. It is the work of sanctification. … When we read, " if we endure … we will be saved… " endurance is a work of sanctification and certainly cannot be understood as a justifying work.

Rom. 2 tells us that in "well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality… " these attributes are all works of sanctification. even though the context is arguing from the Law.

In Galatians Paul offered the sowing and reaping concept all leading to eternal life. Yet sowing and reaping are all part of a sanctifying work of God. There is no hint of salvation as a gift to be received freely.

The passages you quoted here are all out of their context.


#990

I agree, but Jesus established His Church within time and space. He made a commitment to preserve that Church from error. He sent St. Athanasius to preserve the Church from the heresy of Arianism. Why did he not send another Saint, or any other voice, to prevent the faithful from passing through the gates of hell?

If Luther was the John the Baptist of his day, he would have demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit.

So where in the Scripture does it say that Jesus will fail to keep his promise to preserve the Church from error for 1500 years, allowing countless souls to pass through the Gates of Hell? When was the “time out” prophesied that there would be this huge lapse in the Gospel?

Did you notice he was speaking in the PAST TENSE!?

Isnt’ that interesting!

Good Calvanistic theology there tgG!


#991

I understand what you’re saying, I’ve just never really felt that the whole concept of purgatory was necessary for us to be “cleaned up.” Our salvation is worked out here on earth, in fear and trembling. The gap between our human imperfection and the perfection of God is made up by Christ. Through his vicarious sacrifice, we have become the righteousness of God.

Here is how I visualize one’s journey to heaven. I see the world as an island jungle with all kinds of creatures, including human beings. It is mayhem in this island and everybody is trying to escape. At death, a few manage to escape and make it to the beach, if they have lived as true Christians or given some kind of pass by God if they are not Christians. Regardless of how well one lived in the jungle, everybody that makes it to the beach is saved but still has dirt on him or her. The beach is what Catholics call Purgatory. To go from the beach (Purgatory), across the vast ocean, to Heaven is beyond the capacity of those at the beach. So Christ sends rescue boats, from time to time. However, nothing unclean will enter the boat. Therefore those who make it to the beach have to be hosed down. How much hosing depends on how much dirt you have on you. Say, if you only screamed at your sister you may get just a little hosing and you are good to go. On the other hand, if you have layers of dirt on you, a paint stripper may be necessary. So your length of stay at the beach will depend on how much dirt you have on you. When you are all cleaned spotless, you enter the boat and it whisks you to heaven. For those who thump their noses at God, they remain on the island when they die, roling in the mud with pigs, tormented by worms, bitten by mosquitoes, bullied by others, etc, etc, etc…and always aware there is a beach and a haven they can never get to.

Please tell me I am not crazy.


#992

Thanks for the response. But this doesn’t really answer my question.

I’m not sure why every time I ask a straight forward logical question you respond by telling me what I’m trying to say is not in scripture?

It seems like a simple question, not sure what I’m misunderstanding here?

You claim a saved person can turn from loving God, want nothing to do with God and actually preach against God and God will still make the man come see heaven? Where’s the Biblical evidence that we can make the choice to turn from God in this life and still get to see heaven? Sorry I am not seeing it.

You said the Bible tells us To be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

But that is not how I read it.

St. Paul says we would RATHER or WILLING or HOPING to be absent of the body and present with the Lord.

St. Paul tells us it is something we hope for, it is not something that automatically occurs.

Sorry it makes no sense to me that God would force us to be with Him.

God Bless


#993

Yep off the mark. I never once mentioned works or something we must do. I’m not sure why you are arguing against works here?

If you go back and reread my conversation with @lanman87 he accused me of citing a Catholic Bible and claimed …

I was just pointing out that the Catholic Bible isn’t the “ONLY version”. Many Bibles don’t claim this verse tells us we have a guarantee, the way he is defining it. That’s the only point I was making.

I’m not going to respond to the rest of what you say to discredit works, because that is not at issue with this verse.

I totally agree we are saved by the free gift of God’s Grace, period. The only point I was making was that the Holy Spirit is not a 100% guarantee of salvation in this verse, which is what is being presented here. The Holy Spirit is the initial installment of Grace, given by God. That’s it nothing else can be assumed from this verse.

Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying the Holy Spirit can’t save us. Sure for some this initial installment (partial payment) of Grace will be all they will need to be saved. What I am saying is nowhere in this verse is it claiming that the initial installment (partial payment) is all that is needed to persevere to the end. Some of us will need more Grace than others.

I think that is fairly evident from society.

God Bless


#994

MT I think I have apologized to you more than anyone else on this site. And i must do it again. I am focused on many things mostly not related to this site. Finding an example of a failing Christian is difficult if you cannot see salvation as being absolutely free. Any believer who has come to hate God is no doubt lost his faith. Therefore by definition he is no longer a believer but a doubter. The master of deception had penetrated his shield of faith and yanked it to the ground. Is such a person found in scripture and more to your point, found in heaven? I will give a better answer between tonight and sometime tomorrow. I am on my phone now. But a pre-reading of 2nd. Tim 2 may help.


#995

I think @tgGodsway has been wrapped up in the “golden chain of salvation”. It is unlikely that we will be able to untangle him from it here.


#996

I can except your wording here, but there is something not being discussed in this deposit. This deposit brings us to justification by faith apart from works. This declaration is crucial to understanding the whole of the deposit.

The idea of preserving to the end is taken out of its context. The idea is lifted from two different passages: Mt. 10:22; 24:13. In both cases the context is talking about a very specific time during the seven year tribulation period. The enduring unto the end is referring to the persecution by the anti-Christ against a remnant Church in the tribulation period before God’s wrath is poured out. By this time, most of the Church has fallen away as promised.

The salvation in this context is a literal and physical one. "He who endures (this persecution) unto the end (of the tribulation) will be saved=delivered from it. Those who experience this last-day event, you must know, were already justified freely by grace, by the appropriation of Christ finished work on the cross.

Enduring in faith says nothing about God’s declaration of justification pronounced upon your life when you first believed the message of the gospel. You then became born again with the promised deposit of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. All of this was a spiritual salvation.


#997

I’m not sure why you keep bringing this discussion back to works? I don’t think I ever claimed we can save ourselves apart from God’s grace.

In fact I believe so much that we are saved by God’s free gift of grace, that for this reason alone, I find it hard to understand how someone can teach that we can ONLY be "born again based on our ability to hear and understand and accept the word of God."

Not saying this isn’t important but seems to me us having to hear and understand before we can be born again means we have to DO a work before this transformation occurs.

I’m not familiar with this. Maybe you can expand on why you believe this is speaking of a seven year tribulation?

When I read the verse in the context of the Chapter is sure seems like Jesus is addressing the 12 being persecuted by non-Believers. I’m not sure where you are seeing the anti-Christ here?

Chapter 10 starts with Jesus calling the 12. It goes on to name the 12. Verse five tells us he sent the 12. The rest of the chapter seems to be addressing and speaking about the 12 going out to bring Jesus to the world. Seems Jesus is saying whoever endures in Jesus name to the end will be saved. Not seeing any mention of the anti-Christ here.

Maybe you can explain how the anti-Christ and a seven year tribulation is the context here.

So was Jesus NOT addressing His disciples here? I always understood the event Jesus was referencing to be the destruction of the Temple?


#998

MT (on my phone now) it is common knowledge that Matthew 24 is a synopsis of the entire Book of Revelation. The beginning of the chapter the disciples ask a pivotal question of when will these things be and a sign of your coming at the End of the Age.? Their questions place Jesus answer in a very specific context. Before I go any further, do you know anything about the seven year tribulation?


#999

MT. I recommend the book, The Rapture question Answered., By Robert Van Kampen. He is a renown theologian on eschatology.


#1000

Yes the destruction of the temple and more.


#1001

MT. We know that the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, 2nd Corinthians 4:4. Any man who at one time received Jesus Christ as Savior then turned on a dime to hate him, did so by Satan’s deception. But when he stands before his savior he will stand there without any bias and he will see God in his true reality. He will gnash his teeth, just like those who stoned Steven. They gnashed their teeth because they were angry at Steven for telling them the truth. But for a justified sinner, his jaw will drop at the presence of the Lord. He, for the first time ever, will realize he was a vessel Of Dishonor in the house of God. God will deny him any reward because this man failed to invest. Yet God’s benevolent heart, sealed him for just this very day. O’ how rich and merciful is our God, choosing not to give us what we all deserve. It makes me appreciate Him all the more.


#1002

OK? But I’m referencing Matthew 10.

Why would I need Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation to understand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 10? It sure seems if you attempt to do that you totally go against the immediate context of Matthew 10.

As for the seven year tribulation, all I know is there is heated disagreement on the Rapture. Personally, I don’t see why we would need to understand the end times before we can understand salvation. Seems like it would be putting the cart before the horse.

Can’t see how any of this would be necessary to understand Matthew 10.


#1003

I just disagree. Bodily death gets rid of all that is still sinful. There is now no condemnation for those who die in Christ (who died on the Cross as an atonement for sin), and I frankly find any thought that we must bear punishment for our sins (which have already been pardoned and we have already been cleansed of by the blood of Jesus) to be abhorrent.

Romans 8 is such a wonderful explanation of God’s love and life in the Spirit. It begins with “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” and goes on to explain:

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Paul finishes Romans 8 with his famous declaration that nothing can separate us from the love of God:

33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Our bodies are dead to sin, but we live by the Spirit who dwells in us. When we die physically, our sin is purged. All who die in Christ are in his presence, awaiting the resurrection of the body. If God has justified us, what more is left to condemn in us and purge from us in purgatory?


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