Questions about when people get "saved"


#1004

@tgGodsway is in denial that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. He clings to a mistaken notion that the CC denies Eph. 2:8-9

He has been steeped in so much anti-Catholic theology that he has come to believe that Catholics are taught to save themselves by their own works.


#1005

You left me curious why you find this abhorrent?

Let me try to explain why your statement confused me.

I’m guessing you would agree that after we are “born again” we are cleansed of original sin. Yet everyone suffers the same punishment, in this life, for the sin of Adam whether born again or not.

Also, I’m guessing you would agree that if we confess our sins Christ will, at that very moment, pardon and cleanse us from those sins. Yet many of us still bear further punishment in this life even after being cleansed of the sin.

I’m hoping you follow where I’m going with this. Basically, what confused me is why is it perfectly just for God to allow these punishments while we are alive (even when we are born again and confess) but all of the sudden becomes unjust and abhorrent if these same punishments occur to purge us after we die?

Further confusion here. I am 99% sure that you don’t believe in OSAS, so how is this statement not OSAS? Isn’t sin being automatically purged at death (for the born again), regardless of whether you repented or not, the bases for the OSAS belief and the reason one can not lose their salvation?

Thanks,

God Bless


#1006

Yes, repentance and forgiveness of sins accompanies the new birth, in which Christ justifies and regenerates us.

We bear the temporal consequences of our sins.

Scripture teaches that when we confess and repent of our sins, the blood of Christ cleanses us. There is nothing left to punish or cleanse after death because for those who die in Christ their sin was put to death on the Cross. God “remembers them no more” as the Bible puts it.

If we die having truly put our faith in Christ and repented of our sins, then our sins are forgiven. This is not OSAS. OSAS says you ask God to forgive you once in your life and you’re guaranteed salvation forever. We’re talking about people who have actually been justified, regenerated, adopted and sanctified.


#1007

Wow. Not a whole lot of evangelicals “get” this. I’m impressed.

Are you aware of the relationship between this concept and purgatory?


#1008

From the Wesleyan/Methodist/Pentecostal perspective, as long as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit our sins are continually being forgiven by the continued intercession of Christ on our account… We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as long as we have faith and live the life of faith. The only way to lose the indwelling Holy Spirit is to totally renounce faith in Christ or to willfully stay in sin without thought or grief over your sin, which shows you have given up your faith in Christ. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit that guarantees our adoption, forgiveness, and inheritance in Christ. To lose salvation is to have the Holy Spirit withdrawn from the heart of an individual.

The difference between that and the OSAS/Security of the Believer/Perseverance of the Saints perspective is that if someone has truly been converted and born again then they can’t be unborn again. The Holy Spirit will indwell them no matter what. However, if someone renounces their faith or lives in sin without remorse/repentance then that shows they were never truly born again. They may have had intellectual belief or knowledge about how Christians are supposed to live, but they never were made new creations by the Holy Spirit. If they had been made new creations then they would persevere till the end. Not by there own doing but by the will of Christ who lives in them.


#1009

It is much closer to a Catholic view than most evangelical perspectives.


#1010

I would just clarify that repentance is continual. “Living the life of faith” means living a life of continual repentance.

It’s not just that we must think and grieve over our sins, we must hate sin and mortify the flesh through denying the self and rejecting the sin. When we continue to live in sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit and nullify the work of God in our lives (“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” Hebrews 10:26).


#1011

I think we’re well aware that if you go around lying, stealing, murdering, etc. you will reap what you sow in “real life”. Where some so called evangelicals get tripped up is imagining that God is somehow indifferent to the sins you commit once you say a “sinner’s prayer” and that nothing can keep you from going to heaven. It’s a very selfish, carnal and immature theology.

I’m aware of the development as it relates to the Protestant Reformation and the Reformer’s objection to purgatory, but not in any detail.


#1012

I am not trying to deny what is in Matthew 10. But this chapter is a depiction of when Jesus sent out his disciples. In the narrative He begins to tell them what to do when they go out to preach. But in verse 15 He transitions His comments to a future date, but it is very subtle. From verse 15 through 23 everything He said was futuristic as demonstrated by his last words there. "… you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES."
These very same words are better developed in Matthew chapter 24 where, again, He is now answering specific questions about the last days and the coming of the Lord.

It is in that context we interpret what it means when He said, “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” If you are trying to use this passage to mean, he who endures to the end shall be saved=eternally= in heaven, this would not be the passage to prove it. Without getting too much into the mechanics of it,(because I have to jump in my car right now) the “he” in the context are people who already possess eternal life. These are not unsaved people who just need to endure to the end. The salvation= deliverance, they need is a physical one because the context places them in the middle of the tribulation period where the anti-Christ is persecuting God’s remnant Church before the rapture has taken place. What Mt. 24 is talking about is the actual rapture. He who endures the persecution of the anti-Christ, until the end of this period right before God’s judgment is released, shall be delivered from it.

Got to go.


#1013

Yes I agree. But it doesn’t really clear up my confusion.

I’m sure you agree that even after we are cleaned by the blood of Christ and pardoned in this life, He still leaves us to deal with the punishment due for that sin, in this life.

My question was if Jesus does this now why is it abhorrent if He continues to do this after we die?

I know we don’t agree on purgatory, and I’m not trying to argue purgatory with you. It’s just abhorrent is a pretty harsh word and I was wondering why you would consider something that God already does in this life is all of the sudden abhorrent in the next?

OK sorry I misunderstood. When you phrased it…

I seemed like you were saying regardless of whether we repent or not, sin is attached to the body and is automatically gone.

You further stated…

I just figured unrepentant sin would be an answer everyone would give here, except for OSAS. Thus the reason for thinking your response sounded a lot like OSAS.

Thanks


#1014

Sounds good, no objections.

This statement got me thinking. What happens to a sin that you are unaware of? You are not aware of it so can not have grief over the sin. Sure since you are not aware of it the Catholic perspective would be this is a venial sin and not mortal. However, the sin still remains. You continue in this sin throughout your life, you show no grief for your sin, and most importantly someone else is harmed and wronged from your actions.

Does your faith in Jesus give you an automatic pass and no punishment becomes due for this sin or do you lose your salvation for being in unrepentant sin until death?

Can’t really agree with this, because this statement taken to it’s logical conclusion means the only way a person can be born again is because of their own actions.


#1015

Could you please explain how you are understanding this transition? In verse 14 Jesus says some towns won’t accept what they have to say so they should shake the dust of their feet as they leave. This was to signify judgement on those in the town who reject the gospel message. Verse 15 says that when we die and are judged the rejection of the gospel message is a far greater sin than the sexual sins committed by Sodom. The future date is the day we die and judged. Not seeing the rapture here?

Sure Jesus is speaking of a futuristic event that will occur before the death of the last Apostle. That’s pretty plain from the text since He says it will occur before they finish their mission in Israel.

Matthew 10:23 seems to be speaking of the destruction of the Temple being the promise to come again within their generation. I understand how the words Son of Man Comes could be referencing His second coming, however I would probably lean towards this being Jesus speaking of a prelude to His second coming since He is plainly speaking of an event that will occur within the Apostles lifetime.

Why? What am I missing in the Chapter? In the context Jesus seems to be telling the Apostles of the troubled times ahead. How they will be persecuted for spreading the good news, how families will turn against each other. I really like verse 21

21 Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death;

The ones put to death are the martyrs. History, has shown us that all of this has occurred, just like Jesus said it would. Families turned their Children in for becoming Christian. Thousands of Christians persecuted and put to death if they would not renounce their faith. The Apostles being threatened, jailed and put to death unless they renounced Jesus. Not sure if you watched the movie Silence or not? But I think what the Japanese did to the Catholic missionaries is exactly what Jesus was referring to here.

He who endures (being persecuted, jailed and put to death) to the end (never refusing to follow Jesus) will be saved.

When we continue to verse 32
32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

It sure seems like the enduring Jesus is speaking of is enduring in acknowledging Jesus in your life. If you do this to the end of your life, you will be saved, because Jesus will not deny you before God.

Could you point to what I am missing and why?

God Bless


#1016

First I would say it is very difficult for someone to be unaware of a sin they committed. But if that is possible the they would automatically be forgiven of that sin by being “in Christ” by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit and the ongoing intercession of Christ.


#1017

If someone is a murderer, they get arrested, tried and sentenced. They serve their sentence and live with the fall out of being a murderer (loss of freedom, the guilt, the pain/suffering they’ve put others through). They will have to live with the consequences of their sin all the days of their lives. And they should.

If a murderer hears the gospel, is convicted and turns to Christ placing his faith in in Him and repenting of his sin, this person who was a murderer is washed clean and forgiven by God. He is purged of his sin. Christ does not condemn him. Christ does not need to punish him. His death on the cross is enough.

Now, that does not mean this born again person’s crime should be forgotten by society or that he should not face any consequences (legal and personal) for his crime. He cannot erase the effects of his sin, and he cannot simply be let off the hook either. However, once that person dies (provided he dies in Christ) there is no more punishment. We might think he deserves an eternity of purgatorial purging, but the Gospel says there is no condemnation for this man.

If someone spent the majority of their life constantly lying, using and abusing the people around them, they will have to live with the consequences of their actions (broken relationships, hatred and distrust from other people, living and dying alone, feelings of guilt and regret, etc.). Yet, if this person finds Christ in the last 3 years of their lives and truly repents of their old ways, when they die they will not be punished for their lifetime of mistreating people. God forgives them. There is no condemnation for this person.

Continued in next post.


#1018

I find it abhorrent because I can see no way that the idea of purgatory does not nullify Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5 the following:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I don’t see how one can believe in the idea of a purgatory where God continues to punish us for sins committed in life while also believing that he has “not counted our trespasses against us.” I don’t see how we can say that Christ died so we might become the righteousness of God while also saying that even after death we have still not attained the righteousness of God through Christ.


#1019

Why would this be this so difficult? I would think the state of our world is proof positive that people do things every day that they themselves don’t consider to be sinful.

Just seems to me in my mind, if I wronged someone, and was not aware of the sin I committed until I died, I sure would think God’s perfect justice would include making amends (saying sorry) for the sin I was unaware of.

I do agree that this is the reason our sins are forgiven. Would you mind explaining how this can be “automatic” and why we don’t need to confess our sins?


#1020

You mean sins you are unaware of? It is possible to make a general confession of sins. “And Lord, please forgive me for any other sins I have committed and bring them to my remembrance and give me the strength to resist them” or something to that affect.

However, I agree with lanman87. There is a way in which Christ covers us by virtue of being one with him that, for example, one unconfessed sin in a lifetime of faith and repentance will not result in damnation.

He is our Ark if we be in him. Yes, we may have “venial sin” as Catholics term it or sins of weakness, but if we are in Christ he will not let us drown. To live in faith is to live in Christ. We do need to be willing to battle our sin and deal with the sin we are aware of.


#1021

You keep saying punishment, not sure why because purgatory is about purification not punishment. Is there a reason you keep using this word? Yeah I know the word temporal punishment gets thrown around, but that is the term for the mess made from the sin, not the actual eternal punishment from the sin. It is possible to clean up that mess in this life, exactly like you showed in your example. I totally agree that there is no eternal punishment left for sin, but sometimes we are incapable of cleaning up our messes in this lifetime.

Also,wouldn’t you agree that if you were perfectly purified in this life you wouldn’t commit the same sins over and over again. I know you said that sin is connected to the body but sin is also connect to our thoughts and our words and our eyes. Do we no longer have these either in the afterlife? How are these purified so we don’t sin in heaven?

Using this same verse how does saying sorry to someone not nullify Christ’s sacrifice? After all Christ died for our sin and we were forgiven, wouldn’t asking a mere humans forgiveness mean you are admitting Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough for your forgiveness.

I know I am going to far with that analogy, but this is a part of purgatory. Being able to make amends for the sins you did not know you committed or you did not have to suffer the consequences of in this life.

Let’s take your murderer up above. What if he was never caught never punished in this life and had a true conversion on his death bed. Sure Christ’s death is enough to forgive him of the hundreds he killed, but is it fair to this man to bring him into heaven, not because of justice, but because he will have to live for all eternity knowing he never made reparations for his sins?

Purgatory isn’t punishment for our sins, it’s the wash room so we can enter heaven clean. I can’t sleep comfortable without taking a shower, there is no way I want to go to heaven for all eternity with the guilt of all the people I wrong still on my soul. Jesus loves me to much to make me sit in my filth for all eternity.

What’s your thoughts on purgatory, with it not being about punishment but about purification?

God Bless


#1022

Itwin

I understand you do not believe in Purgatory. I do believe in Purgatory. By the way I meant spiritual dirt in reference to my last comment, not physical dirt.

I am not very good at referencing the Bible so I can not provide any quotes. However, here is a scenerio and a follow-up question for you:

My younger brother and I are walking along a jungle dirt track and came upon a mango tree full of ripe mangoes. I ask him to climb the tree and get us some mangoes. He will not and he can not climb the tree because he is afraid of heights. Despite me knowing this, I berate him, call him a sissy and other names you can think of…you know sibling stuff. So I climb the mango tree. Unfortunately, the branch I got on could not carry my weight and it snapped. I fell, smashed my skull and died instantly. I hope you will agree with me that my insulting my younger brother is a sin. Let us assume for our discussions that I could not repent before my death. This sin is petty; it is no where comparable to chopping off an unbeliever’s head or seizing the property of a widow. Assume that I have faithfully followed Jesus all my life.

Here is the question: Are you saying I will go straight to heaven despite my having sinned by insulting my younger brother and despite my not having repented of my sin before I died. If you are in the OSAS band, your answer will be “yes”. But I take it you are not with that group; so where does my soul go to.


#1023

I see your point, but perhaps it is more a matter of semantics. The purging is only available to those who have been pardoned by His blood. It is not so much a “punishment” but part of the cleansing. We will agree that nothing unclean can enter heaven, but many people still have attachment to sin, and parts of themselves that are “unclean” at the moment of death. The state of purgation that occurs after death prepares the soul to enter heaven. It is what is written about in Scripture as everyone being purified with fire at the judgment.

Indeed, those who are prepared for heaven are united with Christ, and it is HIs LOVE that purifies the soul of anything that was not purified(made holy) during our mortal life.

We are in agreement, then, as Catholics call this “purgatory” or the state of being purged. We are salted with fire, and all the dross is burned away so that nothing unclean will enter heaven. If the attachment to sin was in the physical body only then this would not be necessary, but Jesus made it clear that sins of the mind and heart are just as problematic as sins of the body.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.I Cor 15: 52

The Apostle also writes about this event at the coming of Christ. We all believe in Purgatory, you believe it happens in “the twinkling of an eye” that we are changed. Catholics typically think of it in more linear time, which is not exactly accurate either, since this transformation takes place outside of time.


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