Quick quick mary question


#1

ok, im am running a bible study for fourth graders, and this week the student will read the story of samuel. in my supplement that i make for them to study with the passage, i connected the story to mary. im going to post it here, and i was just hoping that someone could give me some feedback to be sure it is all correct. thank you sooo much :slight_smile:


Based on writing by Mary’s mother, Saint Anne, many believe that Mary as also given to serve the Lord in the temple. The outcome was different, however, because she was a female. When Mary was around 13, she would have had to go somewhere else to live, because adult women were believed to contaminate the temple. Joseph, an esteemed Jewish widow, was placed in charge of Mary, who was still only about 13. Jospeh was many years older than Mary, contrary to popular pictures of the Holy Family. This is probably why there is not mention of Joseph after the first years of Jesus’s life, he most likely had died. It is also why we call Mary Ever Virgin, and know that she dedicated her entire life to God.

Samuel’s story can teach us many things about listening to God’s call. Like Samuel, we might not recognize a call to be coming from God, and we might ignore it. We must also be listening, and remember that God is said to speak in a still small voice and think about the meaning of the expression you never know whenn the bum on the street is an angel sent by God.


#2

First, may I ask where you got your information?


#3

This is a pious legend, it is not Catholic doctrine and it is not based on any factual writings. Please do not teach this to 4th graders, it can confuse them. I would not want you teaching this to my child.

There are plenty of good, Scriptural points you can make with the story of Samuel without bringing apocryphal stories into the mix that can confuse young children.


#4

St Anne did not leave any writing that I am aware of, I believe tradition about the parents of Mary and her childhood came from apocryphal gospels such as the proto-Evangelium of James. Nonetheless this is a strong ancient tradition, but does not have the same weight as the Gospels. Another good comparison is Hannah’s prayer of praise at the birth of Samuel, with the Magnificat, and Hannah’s attitude that her son was a gift from God, consecrated to God’s service, compare with Mary’s giving up her Son to God’s work and ultimately to His passion and death.


#5

There are no writings of St. Anne. This story of Mary’s early life is found in an early Christian work called the Protoevangelium of James*, *now thought to have been written by an anonymous Christian of the second century.

So, instead of saying that this is based on the writings of St. Anne, it would be better to say that this is based on an early Christian tradition that may or may not be true.


#6

[quote=1ke]This is a pious legend, it is not Catholic doctrine and it is not based on any factual writings. Please do not teach this to 4th graders, it can confuse them. I would not want you teaching this to my child.

There are plenty of good, Scriptural points you can make with the story of Samuel without bringing apocryphal stories into the mix that can confuse young children.
[/quote]

It may be a pious legend, but it has the endorsement of the Church. Check your missalette. November 21 is the Memorial of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

usccb.org/nab/112105.htm

According to the November 2005 issue of Magnificat, page 289:

“This feast commemorates the dedication of the church of Saint Mary which was built in Jerusalem near the site of the temple. With Christians of the East, the Latin Church also recalls on this day the tradition according to which Mary as a small child was presented to the Lord by her parents in the temple.”


#7

Also, we should recall the Rosary mystery of the Presentation of Our Lord in the Temple. I don’t know if Mary was the first-born, but recall what the Lord said to Moses immediately after He delivered the Jews from Egypt:

“Consecrate to me all the first-born; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine.” (Exodus 13:1–2)


#8

Can you show us a copy of St. Anne’s handwriting? Now that would be a neat trick. Additionally, Jesus is referred to as the Carpenter’s son in the NT. That would seem to imply that ole Joseph was at least around long enough in His childhood for folks to associate Jesus with Him. You’re teaching myth as fact. Please don’t. Teach the truth. It’s okay that we don’t exactly know all the details of Mary and Joseph. Finally, the respected mystic, Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich describes a very different accounting of the early life of Jesus. You would do well to pick up the book The Life of the Blessed Vigin Mary to compare with what you propose to teach.


#9

The reason I asked where you got your info is because I have some excellent places for you if you don’t already have them, one of them is
www.newadvent.org then just click on M and then on the first one about Mary, Blessed Virgin. It is similar to what you said here, it also has a whole lot more, starting with how she was prophesied in the Old Testament, and the verses for that. Mary in the Gospels, and the verses for that, her Davidic ancestry, her parents, Immaculate Conception, birth, Presentation in the Temple (and she was an only child), her bethrothal to Joseph, the Annunciation, Visitation, and on and on, clear up to the Early Christian attitude to the Mother of God.
Other good sites are this one of course
homepage at www.catholic.com then click on Mary and the Saints
www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
the Vatican web site www.vatican.va then click on english (or whichever language you prefer) and then in the search type in Mary
ewtn is another great one
www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm or
www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marymenu.htm (under faith on their home page, then click on teachings and then Mary, Mother of Jesus.)


#10

[quote=luvthelight]ok, im am running a bible study for fourth graders, and this week the student will read the story of samuel. in my supplement that i make for them to study with the passage, i connected the story to mary. im going to post it here, and i was just hoping that someone could give me some feedback to be sure it is all correct. thank you sooo much :slight_smile:


Based on writing by Mary’s mother, Saint Anne, many believe that Mary as also given to serve the Lord in the temple. The outcome was different, however, because she was a female. When Mary was around 13, she would have had to go somewhere else to live, because adult women were believed to contaminate the temple. Joseph, an esteemed Jewish widow, was placed in charge of Mary, who was still only about 13. Jospeh was many years older than Mary, contrary to popular pictures of the Holy Family. This is probably why there is not mention of Joseph after the first years of Jesus’s life, he most likely had died. It is also why we call Mary Ever Virgin, and know that she dedicated her entire life to God.

Samuel’s story can teach us many things about listening to God’s call. Like Samuel, we might not recognize a call to be coming from God, and we might ignore it. We must also be listening, and remember that God is said to speak in a still small voice and think about the meaning of the expression you never know whenn the bum on the street is an angel sent by God.
[/quote]

You’re basing the details about Mary on a very unreliable source :slight_smile:

The writing in question appears to be the “Protevangelium of James”, and is by someone who knew very little about the Temple, did not know the name of the high priest at the supposed time, & was ignorant of the geography of Palestine. It’s a pretty story, but there is no reason to think it has any basis in fact. Catholics never defend it by any other reasoning than that it honours Mary - as though the mother of God were honoured by what is not true; & as though good morals could not be found in fairy-tales.

There are good moral lessons in “The Hobbit” - that does not prove that Gandalf is an historical person. Maybe in 2400 there will be fierce disputes about the date of the destruction of much of New York by King Kong, and attempts to find the site of the Shire, & research into the processes by which the USS Enterprise was designed & built. These stories differ from the “Protevangelium of James” only in that the fiction of the PoJ seeks to honour a real person by inventing a fitting childhood for her; a chilhood as it might have been, not as it was. It’s a pious legend, with some nice ideas in it, which interpret the significance of Christ & Mary; but it’s not in any sense a life of Joseph or Mary.

As Leo XIII said, “God has no need of our lies” - about Mary, or anything else. The “Protevangelium of James” was condemned by a Roman council in 495. That did not affect its popularity. Like some other Christian Apocrypha, it has greatly influenced Christian Art.

The morals you draw are good ones - it’s the “Protevangelium of James” that is dodgy; it’s fine if one realises it is not what it claims to be. Your fourth-graders (like us) can profit from the moral lessons you find in it; but it’s not a good source for “what actually occurred”. The lessons you’ve drawn would not suffer if you kept to the OT reading, IMHO ##


#11

whoa whoa slow down. alright i posted it here BECAUSE i didn’t know how hte church regarded the information. i had only heard these stories again and again. im new at this stuff.
puzzeannie thnx for the ideas. n others thnx for the sources. now does THIS jibe w/ everyone?

According to popular ancient legends, many believe that Mary as also given to serve the Lord in the temple. The outcome was different, however, because she was a female. When Mary was around 13, she would have had to go somewhere else to live, because adult women were believed to contaminate the temple. Joseph, an esteemed Jewish widow, was placed in charge of Mary, who was still only about 13. Jospeh was many years older than Mary, contrary to popular pictures of the Holy Family. This is probably why there is not mention of Joseph after the first years of Jesus’s life, he most likely had died. It is also why we call Mary Ever Virgin, and know that she dedicated her entire life to God. The exact details of Mary’s early life are not known, but this has been a popular theory held by many since it was recorded in 120 AD.

Hannah and Mary also were very similar in their attitudes towards children. They both welcomed their sons as gifts from God, and understood they were each to serve God, Samuel in the temple and Jesus as the Messiah.

Samuel’s story can teach us many things about listening to God’s call. Like Samuel, we might not recognize a call to be coming from God, and we might ignore it. We must always be listening, and remember that God is said to speak in a still small voice and think about the meaning of the expression you never know when the bum on the street is an angel sent by God.


#12

Well luvthelight, that’s what we’re all trying to tell you, when you teach Catholic belief’s you need to know what those Catholic belief’s are. That is why I gave you all those sources so you could look up what we believe.
This is also why other’s have told you that they wouldn’t want you teaching that to their children, because it might confuse them.
It is best that when one is teaching anything Catholic, that they teach what the Catholic Church believes. (not opinions, thoughts, wishes, or what someone else told them, otherwise you end up with half-truths.) That always leads to confusion.
In the Old Testament, as you may already know, there is always a connection between the Old and the New. It is good that you are asking, but to get the benefit of the whole truth, you could ask the Apologetics here and the experts on ewtn’s web site, those people study and live their Catholic faith and have much more extensive knowledge than the average Catholic. (see, I was taught that St. Joseph was younger than the popular image of him as shown.) The basic story of what you are telling about the Blessed Mother’s early life doesn’t exactly all sound the same as what I understand either, please read the site’s I mentioned, especially the newadvent one that tells all about her life. (she had visions of angels very early in life, she more than likely was allowed to go to the temple because of her pious devotions, and didn’t live there, her parents had prayed for a child for years, they dedicated her life to God, they were Saints, very holy and devout people, it even explains what was believed about why she chose to remain a Virgin and how and why she questioned the angel about what the angel’s message was, since she already had dedicated her virginity to God and how she knew that God knew that and goes on to explain how she knew and believed that anything was possible with Him.
You just may find that if you read what the Church teaches, then it will clear up any misinformation that is in your version. Okay?


#13

[quote=luvthelight]whoa whoa slow down. alright i posted it here BECAUSE i didn’t know how hte church regarded the information. i had only heard these stories again and again. im new at this stuff.
puzzeannie thnx for the ideas. n others thnx for the sources. now does THIS jibe w/ everyone?

According to popular ancient legends, many believe that Mary as also given to serve the Lord in the temple. The outcome was different, however, because she was a female. When Mary was around 13, she would have had to go somewhere else to live, because adult women were believed to contaminate the temple. Joseph, an esteemed Jewish widow, was placed in charge of Mary, who was still only about 13. Jospeh was many years older than Mary, contrary to popular pictures of the Holy Family. This is probably why there is not mention of Joseph after the first years of Jesus’s life, he most likely had died. It is also why we call Mary Ever Virgin, and know that she dedicated her entire life to God. The exact details of Mary’s early life are not known, but this has been a popular theory held by many since it was recorded in 120 AD.

Hannah and Mary also were very similar in their attitudes towards children. They both welcomed their sons as gifts from God, and understood they were each to serve God, Samuel in the temple and Jesus as the Messiah.

Samuel’s story can teach us many things about listening to God’s call. Like Samuel, we might not recognize a call to be coming from God, and we might ignore it. We must always be listening, and remember that God is said to speak in a still small voice and think about the meaning of the expression you never know when the bum on the street is an angel sent by God.
[/quote]

The part highlighted is one the of the many parts that I am really having problems with. In the Gospels we hear that at the age of 12 Jesus stayed behind in the temple and was teaching the teachers, his parents went back looking for him and Our Lady said why have you done this didn’t you know that your father and I would be looking for you? Now that tells me that St Joseph was in our Lords life at least until he was twelve.

Now as for the ever virgin part, we as Catholics believe that the reason why Mary is ever virgin is because she is betrothed to the Holy Spirit and so there for could not ever have had a marital relationship with St Joseph.

I just ask that you look more into your teaching and what the Church teaches. We don’t ever want to lead others astray.

Monica


#14

sorry to everyone if i seemed angry. i do apoligize and appriciate your help. i had just gotten the information i was using from the catholic answers website catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp so i was a little surprised when everyone jumped all over it. i will be sure to emphasize this is only a theory and that we know that mary is ever virgin FOR CERTAIN b/c the Holy Spirit is the one that co - created Jesus (i have some trouble wording these sorts of things w/ 4th graders so if ne 1 has any suggestions of ways to put it it would be appriciated as well) and so, obviously, with the commandment - no adultry - she could not have ever created any children w/ joseph

thnx again


#15

[quote=Pentecost2005]It may be a pious legend, but it has the endorsement of the Church. Check your missalette. November 21 is the Memorial of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

usccb.org/nab/112105.htm

According to the November 2005 issue of Magnificat, page 289:

[/quote]

Jewish children were presented in the temple with a sacrifice when they were babies-- see the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple documented in Scripture.

That is NOT the same thing as the apochryphal writings regarding Mary indicating she was a consecrated virgin who lived in the temple.

Adults can distinguish between Scripture and pious legend, children at that age cannot. You are seriously confused and if you taught that stuff to my kids the priest would be getting a phone call post haste.


#16

[quote=luvthelight]whoa whoa slow down. alright i posted it here BECAUSE i didn’t know how hte church regarded the information. i had only heard these stories again and again. im new at this stuff.
puzzeannie thnx for the ideas. n others thnx for the sources. now does THIS jibe w/ everyone?

According to popular ancient legends, many believe that Mary as also given to serve the Lord in the temple. The outcome was different, however, because she was a female. When Mary was around 13, she would have had to go somewhere else to live, because adult women were believed to contaminate the temple. Joseph, an esteemed Jewish widow, was placed in charge of Mary, who was still only about 13. Jospeh was many years older than Mary, contrary to popular pictures of the Holy Family. This is probably why there is not mention of Joseph after the first years of Jesus’s life, he most likely had died. It is also why we call Mary Ever Virgin, and know that she dedicated her entire life to God. The exact details of Mary’s early life are not known, but this has been a popular theory held by many since it was recorded in 120 AD.

Hannah and Mary also were very similar in their attitudes towards children. They both welcomed their sons as gifts from God, and understood they were each to serve God, Samuel in the temple and Jesus as the Messiah.

Samuel’s story can teach us many things about listening to God’s call. Like Samuel, we might not recognize a call to be coming from God, and we might ignore it. We must always be listening, and remember that God is said to speak in a still small voice and think about the meaning of the expression you never know when the bum on the street is an angel sent by God.
[/quote]

Honestly, you just need to skip the parts that are not factual entirely. These are 4th graders. If YOU are not even sure about everything, how do you think this will be received by 9 year olds???

Leave out the parts about Mary’s childhood and all the speculation. It’s not relevant, and could be detrimental.


#17

[quote=luvthelight]sorry to everyone if i seemed angry. i do apoligize and appriciate your help. i had just gotten the information i was using from the catholic answers website catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp so i was a little surprised when everyone jumped all over it. i will be sure to emphasize this is only a theory and that we know that mary is ever virgin FOR CERTAIN b/c the Holy Spirit is the one that co - created Jesus (i have some trouble wording these sorts of things w/ 4th graders so if ne 1 has any suggestions of ways to put it it would be appriciated as well) and so, obviously, with the commandment - no adultry - she could not have ever created any children w/ joseph

thnx again
[/quote]

Do you have a religious education coordinator you can work with? A book that gives you lessons? You need some guidance on what is appropriate to teach at this age level.

This is NOT appropriate for a 4th grade class-- you don’t need to get into ever-virgin and adultery with Joseph. Honestly, what are you thinking???


#18

ok look. im not a parent, or an adult. the ccd teacher i work w/ (im an aide) has left me in charge of developing a bible study program with the fourth graders. the purpose is to connect each story to something instructive about our faith (they will also be reading the section in mathew est. the papacy, pieces from the prophacies about Jesus, the pentecost and the est. of hte church, ect ect.) i was trying to find a story that related to what our church teaches about mary. while researching the issue, i found that it was recorded that mary lived an early life similar to samuel. i thought this was perfect, something they could understand and as they got older, would be able to connect with mary as being ever virgin. I DID NOT REALISE this story was so taboo and not accepted by fellow catholics. alright. thats why i came here first. i reworded the plan. when next week comes and it is time to teach the lesson, i will be sure to gloss over this, and only mention that there are legands about mary’s early life, but no one knows for certain. i will instead emphasize the last two paragraphs of the lesson i posted. again, i thank those who were civil in trying to help me sort this out.


#19

I really like the parallel between Hannah and Mary. We were discussing this in the Bible study that I am currently attending (the Infancy Narratives).

SG257


#20

[quote=luvthelight]ok look. im not a parent, or an adult. the ccd teacher i work w/ (im an aide) has left me in charge of developing a bible study program with the fourth graders.
[/quote]

This is very unfair to you! You should not be left to develop a lesson without experience, guidance, or training.

I’m sure your heart is in the right place but we must be very careful when instructing young children. They can easily be confused by things.

Stick to simple illustrations and examples. Stick to the very basics of the story. If you focus on two or three main points about Hannah’s and Samuel’s lives and make a simple comparison to some new testament individuals such as Mary, Elizabeth, Jesus, John the Baptist, then that is plenty. Don’t get too detailed or put too many points in one lesson.


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