Quran called Abram "Abraham" before his migration !!!


#1

Quran never mentioned the name "Abram" even in his youth, that was the name "Abraham" used to be called before his migration according to the Bible Genesis 12.

(Quran 21:60):
YUSUFALI: They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
PICKTHAL: They said: We heard a youth make mention of them, who is called Abraham.
SHAKIR: They said: We heard a youth called Ibrahim speak of them.
*[RIGHT]
قَالُوا سَمِعْنَا فَتًى يَذْكُرُهُمْ يُقَالُ لَهُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ*
[/RIGHT]

Who is responsible about that historical error!, that violent spirit who revealed the Quran to Muhammed, or those who wrote Quran after his death, in both cases that is a another proof that the Quran is not a divine scripture.


#2

I have heard it said the the Quran has many more references to Mary than our bible does. Should we trust these references are a source of enlightenment as to Mary’s life, or should we disregard them as they are from the Quran?


#3

As a Catholic I would disregard them. The reason is my religion forbids me to believe in what the Quran says.


#4

Since the Quran was written some 1500-2000 years after Abraham, I wouldn’t think it would have used “Abram” any ways…their purpose in mentioning Abraham wasn’t to draw attention that he received a new name from Allah, but that Abraham was being referenced.:shrug:


#5

[quote="Falco, post:2, topic:304899"]
I have heard it said the the Quran has many more references to Mary than our bible does. Should we trust these references are a source of enlightenment as to Mary's life, or should we disregard them as they are from the Quran?

[/quote]

Koran also claims that the crucifixion didn't happen, it was another man. The Koran repeats itself many times, i.e.. stories are told again more than once. There is some research that parts of the Koran are not from angle Gabriel dictating to Mohammed but borrowed from Syriac heretical Christian writings. The Koran may mention Mary and the virgin birth but it is certainly incomplete and erroneous in its conclusion about Christ. Sam_777 is correct to point out its corruption from OT and NT.


#6

[quote="Publisher, post:4, topic:304899"]
Since the Quran was written some 1500-2000 years after Abraham, I wouldn't think it would have used "Abram" any ways.....their purpose in mentioning Abraham wasn't to draw attention that he received a new name from Allah, but that Abraham was being referenced.:shrug:

[/quote]

You have a point there since the Quran, unlike the Book of Genesis, does not tell a story about Abraham but only making references about him. Yet without another reference, that is the Bible, the Quran's readers can be misled about the details in Abraham's story or rather, it gives an impression of error in the Quran part.

What can be deduced from here is that unwittingly the Quran has to depend on some other references, in this case the Bible, to really have a correct narration about Abraham. One would have to wonder ... - now that the Muslims have lost this valuable reference since they do not the Bible at face value.


#7

What if the Qur’an agrees with what your church says? If the Qur’an teaches the virginity of Mary, are you thus going to disbelieve it because it comes from the Qur’an?


#8

To be exact, it calls Abraham “Ibrahim”.


#9

[quote="Usbek_de_Perse, post:7, topic:304899"]
What if the Qur'an agrees with what your church says? If the Qur'an teaches the virginity of Mary, are you thus going to disbelieve it because it comes from the Qur'an?

[/quote]

I will agree with it mate.;)


#10

[quote="Usbek_de_Perse, post:8, topic:304899"]
To be exact, it calls Abraham "Ibrahim".

[/quote]

Hi. Ibrahim is an Arabic equivalent of Abraham. Sam was talking of Abraham's pre-calling name, Abram which he noted, the Quran does not mention it at all. Unless Ibrahim is Arabic equivalent to both Abraham and Abram, though that would be a bit strange since the two names are not the same. :)


#11

The Quran has no mention of what specifically our Church teaches about Mary. Infact her virginity isn’t explained like the Bible does.

So as for me I have no interest at all what the Quran teaches but may use it as a reference of what an incomplete belief is.

MJ


#12

[quote="Publisher, post:4, topic:304899"]
Since the Quran was written some 1500-2000 years after Abraham, I wouldn't think it would have used "Abram" any ways.....their purpose in mentioning Abraham wasn't to draw attention that he received a new name from Allah, but that Abraham was being referenced.:shrug:

[/quote]

Agreed:D

MJ


#13

[quote="MartinJordan, post:11, topic:304899"]
The Quran has no mention of what specifically our Church teaches about Mary. Infact her virginity isn't explained like the Bible does.

So as for me I have no interest at all what the Quran teaches but may use it as a reference of what an incomplete belief is.

MJ

[/quote]

Exactly. If the Quran agrees with the Bible, it is fine but it will not be a source for me to find the truth. I believe that is what the Muslims would accord us as regards to the Bible.

To be safe and you have said it appropriately, even if the Quran agrees to some of the Bible's story, Christians would still have to wary about agreeing to its teaching or its version of the story. What's in the scriptures, be it the Bible or the Quran, they are always the basis for the doctrines and belief of the religion respectively. It is very dangerous to agree with the Quran, only to find out that it teaches contrary to our belief.

In other word, the Quran does not figure in the life of a Christian. Perhaps to the Muslims, where it agrees with the Quran, they still consider the Bible as truth because of the claim that Islam is the continuation of the ancient prophets and holy books. This does not apply to Christians - thus the statement in my post #3.


#14

[quote="Sam_777, post:1, topic:304899"]
Quran never mentioned the name "Abram" even in his youth, that was the name "Abraham" used to be called before his migration according to the Bible Genesis 12.

[/quote]

I can't see islam being wrong about Jesus Christ and then suddenly being right about the people and events in the Bible.

I think it is fitting that they would leave out the name change, because a lot in the Abraham cycle foreshadows Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.

But think about it, Abram has his name change to Abraham. "Ab" as in Abba and "raham" as in RHM. They understand RHM but don't understand God as Abba (Father) which is quite sad really.

[quote="Publisher, post:4, topic:304899"]
Since the Quran was written some 1500-2000 years after Abraham, I wouldn't think it would have used "Abram" any ways.....their purpose in mentioning Abraham wasn't to draw attention that he received a new name from Allah, but that Abraham was being referenced.:shrug:

[/quote]

In the koran the reference is there to support islamic views; not because the person (who was mentioned in the scipture first) has a mission from God (a tasks to perform so to speak) that works into the Divine Plan of Salvation that is recorded in the Bible and is taught by the Church.

[quote="MartinJordan, post:11, topic:304899"]
The Quran has no mention of what specifically our Church teaches about Mary. Infact her virginity isn't explained like the Bible does.

So as for me I have no interest at all what the Quran teaches but may use it as a reference of what an incomplete belief is.

MJ

[/quote]

Something can be incomplete yet all right for what it is.
I don't see it as an "incomplete belief" but as an "argument" against Judeo-Christianity. The reference are there to add credibility to that argument.


#15

:tsktsk: No that is completely wrong from an Islamic point of view, who said that Quran is not a history reference, indeed it’s, it’s written in Quran that all of its contents were written before human creations in something called “Preserved Tablet”, that is mentioned in (Quran 85:21-22): “Day, this is a Glorious Qur’an, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!”.

So which name was written before human creation in that Preserved Tablet “Abram” or “Abraham” ! :whistle:


#16

[quote="Sam_777, post:15, topic:304899"]
:tsktsk: No that is completely wrong from an Islamic point of view, who said that Quran is not a history reference, indeed it's, it's written in Quran that all of its contents were written before human creations in something called "Preserved Tablet", that is mentioned in (Quran 85:21-22): "Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!".

So which name was written before human creation in that Preserved Tablet "Abram" or "Abraham" ! :whistle:

[/quote]

Of course it would be wrong in the Islamic point of view to dare question the Quran. But historically it is mistaken in many things like Pharoah's wife discovering Moses, David never sinned or any prophets for that matter, etc. Revisionism is the order for anything connected to Judaism or Christianity.

MJ


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