I have read a part of Quran, The book of Mormon, the Bahai book(whatever its called) and the Bible. The book of Mormon is obvouisly a fiction. “The bahai book” is not that inspiring. So than there was the Bible and Quran. The Bible is probably more beatiful but i keep questioning how could Muhammad wrote Quran. Quran differs so much from other holy books. I keep finding it more and more unbelieveable that Muhammad wrote Quran. And lately i have been doubting St.Paul. I mean, a lot of people say(not only muslims) that he was the first corrupter of Christianity. I don’t know anymore. Im in a lot of doubt. I keep doubting the “nowadays” Christianity. I don’t find the Quran more beatiful or emotional than other “holy” books but i can’t see, when i read it, how could Muhammad come out with such a masterpiece. I mean Quran is regarder as the finest piece of literature in Arabic langague. Paul made so many changes from discarding the old Law, discarding circumcision,… How could God change His mind about circumsision. Im in a lot of doubt.

Are you sure you’ve read the Koran?

I’ve read it twice and find it a very dull and uninspiring piece of work. Anyone could have come up with it.

Is Homer a prophet? His works are considered masterpieces of not only of Greek literature, but of world literature; and, unlike the Quran, their status as masterpieces and beauty are not somehow lost when translated from their original language.

As for the argument of God changing His mind, if you read the Bible you will find that the language of the Jews came from God. Why would He give His chosen people one language, have His commandments written in said language, then thousands of years later decide that the real language to use would be not only Arabic, but one specific version of Arabic? Or that He would send a non-Jewish “prophet” to help lead His people back to the “true” religion?

Humans can do a lot, if a book is a finest piece of Arabic literature that doesn’t make it true, Arab poets and writers were very good in that period of time.

Ever considered the scientific and the linguistic errors in the Quran or the harsh laws and rules?

All the three are a result of that period of time and place.

To believe Paul corrupted Christianity is to believe that Luke also corrupted Christianity. To believe that, we must also believe that Matthew, Mark, and John corrupted Christianity. To believe that we must also believe that Peter was in on it, along with James.

There is a passage in the Qur’an which says something along the lines of, “if anyone doesn’t trust this book tell them to create a book like it.” And because this argument is found in the Qur’an, Muslims use it as well. Now, if Paul did corrupt Christianity, why did he write how he did:

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.” (1 corin 13:4-8)

Not only did Paul record his conversion process in his letters:

Galatians 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Paul then goes on to describe how he was advancing so far in his beliefs and gave it all away to suffer all kinds of dangers.

*3 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas** and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.**

So Paul was a top member of Judaism and then he suddenly changed and for what?

*2 corin 11:24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

And if you don’t believe him, look what he goes on to say:
32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.*

This is found to be true in Luke’s account of, “The Acts.”

Acts 9:23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

There are many other parallels between Peter’s writings, the Acts and Paul’s writings that I can use to help prove to you the honesty of these men. God bless!*

St. Paul was just going on what he had been taught by Christ. It wasn’t his decision to change things. Christ changed things because the Old Covenant was fulfilled and so the laws of the Old Covenant no longer apply. They weren’t abolished, but were fulfilled. Circumcision is fulfilled in Baptism, which is why circumcision isn’t a requirement of the faith. Your doubt is your own doing. Learn about your own faith before exploring others. Put down the Quran and pick up your Catechism and books on Apologetics. All your doubts and questions can be answered by them. After you learn and understand your own faith, then you can look at what other faiths believe. Looking into multiple belief systems when you are already confused will only bring about more confusion.

Go read Paul again and again to see what he actually says about the old law and what Jesus did for us so that we don’t need the old law. Paul changed nothing, rather he (and the rest of the apostles) made it clear that the old testament law was done away with when Christ came. Thats not say Christians don’t have a law, there is a law of sort because Paul made disciplinary action in his churches and clearly spoke of certain things being forbidden. Paul’s thought is complicated and cannot be grasped easily unless one knows him back to front.

Timi: so you think Paul is to be doubted and may have corrupted Christianity, when he says things like these:

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you…]

the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. …]

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.

On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

However you consider beautiful - a masterpiece even - and divinely inspired the following:

Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers …] I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them …] Fight the idol-worshipers, capture, besiege and ambush them until they convert to Islam. Fight the non-believers, Allah will humiliate them and give you victory.

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them …]

I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes. …]

Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’

Go figure. :shrug:

What do you mean by nowadays Christianity?



But i want to ask just another question:

From wikipedia:
At the age of nine, Muhammad went to Syria with his uncle and had interactions with Christians. One important contact was with the Nestorian monk Bahira in Bosra, modern Syria who foretold to the adolescent Muhammad his future prophetic career.[1]

Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a Nestorian monk,[2] Mecca’s priest or preacher according to some sources.

So how is it possible that some monk foretold Muhammad prophetic career?

Nestorianism is a heresy :shrug: I wouldn’t consider reliable such a prophesy. Besides, he did have a prophetic career. The issue at hand is whether the prophesies came from God or not. I don’t think we want to get into this discussion here, as some of us (ok, me) cannot stand false political correctness and tend to get in trouble.

By the way, regarding interaction with Christians, this may be an interesting reading.

Hi Timi,

I find your post fascinating, and I have a couple of questions. First, what is the name of the book of Bahai that you have read? Secondly, what brought you to doubt St.Paul? Is there a particular passage or claim that he makes that makes you think he corrupted Christianity and which of the books written by Paul do you find particularly corrupting?

Finally, if you are doubting the “nowadays” Christianity, which Christianity do you not doubt?

R C,

I am so glad you brought out Belloc’s treatise. I love it and often wonder why he seems to get less billing among the Catholics than Chesterton and others.

From the Gospel of Barnabas.

[quote=2 Timothy 4:3-4] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

In wisdom, let us attend.

Good one! :thumbsup:


Muhammed did not write the Quran or anything, Muhammed was illiterate person, so he let four of his decibels memorizing the Quran, and some of them were writing some verses on manuscript, later on after Muhammed death the Quran was assembled into one book.

***Sahih Bukhari,Volume 6, Book 61, Number 521:
*'Abdullah bin 'Amr mentioned 'Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet saying, 'Take (learn) the Qur’an from four: ‘Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu’adh and Ubai bin Ka’b.’ "

Hi Timi, Muhammad § didn’t write the Qur’an. He dictated it to his scribes as it was revealed to him over a period of 23 years.

The story of the Christian Monk who for told of Muhammad § destiny sounds dubious to me but that’s probably because I don’t place any value in the sunni sources.

In my opinion, God doesn’t change his mind. Changing HIs mind would suggest He didn’t have enough foresight to know something wouldn’t work and if He would change his mind from X to Y then why go with X to begin with? wouldn’t you expect He would know that X isn’t going to work in the first place.

I agree, the Quran is a masterpiece and I’m glad you see that also.

all the best to you on your Journey Timi.

Famdigy, God may very well “look” like He changes His mind, but the reality is that His guidance for mankind through His Messengers dictate that things change as humanity evolves, both materially and spiritually.

Gee! You mean maybe that thing God promised to Hagar about Ishmael might be “true”?

You think God really does keep His promises after all?

You mean to be telling me that the world doesn’t revolve around “me” ???

What kind of God is that anyway?..

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