Radical feminism and morality

And what is the fruit of radical feminism?


Though we’ve always tended toward sin - always - we young Catholic men were taught in the 1960s about girls who maintained their virtue and girls (and boys) who did not. We were told to be polite to but not date girls who abandoned their virtue. Being a virgin before marriage was important for the girl and the guy. And we were discouraged from the false: “If you really loved me you’d sleep/have sex with me.”

Things are slowly improving:




To me, the key point is that no one ever FORCED Catholics to adopt the degrading practices of the pagan culture around them.

Yet, in the late 1960s, Catholics began doing exactly that.

Now some Catholics want to put all the blame on Feminists and Liberals. Limbaugh and others have made themselves millionaires doing this.

But Feminists and Liberals are not raising our children. WE ARE.

So, I vote that we TAKE RESPONSIBLITY for ourselves as a Catholic People, and quit scapegoating outsiders, regardless of how kooky or sinful their ideas and actions may be. Scapegoating outsiders was very popular in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s, as you will recall, and that didn’t produce anything good.

These outsiders have NO POWER over us Catholics, unless we GIVE it to them. We are not their slaves or puppets, unless we choose to be.

Consider that** some religious groups in the USA have NEVER** adopted the degraded customs of the pagan culture around them. Examples:

-Jehovah’s Witnesses
-Hasidic Jews

To me, this is PROOF POSITIVE that no one ever forced WE CATHOLICS to go into decline with the general pagan culture. Yet, WE DID. So, it was our choice. It is still our choice.

**We don’t need a Culture War **(“jihad”) AGAINST outsiders like Feminists, Socialists, Liberals.

We just need to GET OUT ACT TOGETHER.

If Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Hasidic Jews, and Amish can do it, WHY CAN’T WE. WE CAN, whenever we as a people are ready.

All this had been said by the respected Catholic professor Peter Kreeft. Here are some samples from his writing:

*Today, many Christians think it [our enemy] is the Muslims. But they are often more loyal to their half-Christ than we are to our whole Christ, and live more godly lives following their fallible scriptures and their fallible prophet than we do following our infallible Scriptures and our infallible Prophet. If you compare the stability of the family and the safety of children among Muslims and among Christians in today’s world; or if you compare the rate of abortion, divorce, adultery, and sodomy among Muslims and Christians in today’s world; and if you dare to apply to this data the principles announced by the prophets in our own Scriptures when they say repeatedly that God blesses those who obey His law and punishes those who do not, then I think you will know why Islam is growing faster that Christianity today. [Ed. note: These remarks were delivered in 1998.] Faithful Muslims serve under the same general God, though through a different and more primitive communications network. And the same, I think, is true of the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Quakers. *

Statistics show that in the United States, the West’s most religious nation, Catholics murder, rape, commit adultery, abort, fornicate, euthanize, and commit suicide at the same rate as everyone else. Can anyone who knows Scripture wonder why God is not blessing the Church in the United States?* Muslims, Mormons, Protestant Evangelicals, and Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, who are living and behaving differently, distinctively, “counter-culturally”, are growing in numbers** and vitality, even though they have defective theologies, because they are obeying God’s moral laws.*

The first quote was from: The quote above was from Dr. Peter Kreeft’s web site, but it is also in a transcript of an audio speech he gave about his published book titled How To Win the Culture War. (It has since been removed from his web site, but can be found on other web sites)

The second quote was from: Catholic Christianity: A Complete Catechism of Catholic Beliefs, books.google.com/books?isbn=0898707986
Peter Kreeft, Peter Kreeft - 2001 - Religion - 426 pages

In SUM, I propose that WE CATHOLICS quit acting like we are the pathetic VICTIMS of Liberals and Feminists.

Who cares if Limbaugh and company want to keep whipping us up into a rage and Culture War. What diocese is Limbaugh the bishop of? At which parish does he attend Mass and attend Eucharistic Adoration? Where was he ordained into the priesthood?

I repeat: The Liberals and Feminists have NO POWER OVER US, unless we lay down and follow them like lemmings. The Mormons and the Amish don’t follow them, and never did.

Let US RISE UP LIKE MEN and do what we need to do.

The Culture War is for wimps. No disrespect meant to you Mr. Limbaugh. But it would be better if you actually DID something to make the USA a better country.

In other words, it is we who determine how our children are raised. It is we who determine what goes on in our families and parishes. It is we who determine what schools our children attend. We are in charge of our own lives. No one makes us watch 4 hours of TV each day. No one makes us watch Hollywood movies, or listen to Lady Gaga.

I am related to people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses. They seem to be pretty much insync with the “modern” culture as anyone else.

I’m not sure what you are refering to with your rant, red letters and all. The article, written by a Catholic man, is pointing out a truth about how women would be much more attractive to decent men, if they went back to the old ways of the pre-1960s as far as their virtues and demeaner.

What is your argument with that?

Forgive me for not explaining myself very well. My argument is that WE AS CATHOLICS have had TOTAL FREEDOM since the 1960s to retain or restore the PRETTY standard for women and girls instead of the HOT standard. We have the total FREEDOM of CHOICE today. We are not an oppressed people. **We are not slaves in Egypt **needing Moses to lead us across the Red Sea to the Promised Land. Our Religious Liberty Rights are not being denied. So bloggers and talk show hosts don’t need to rant against OUTSIDERS such as Liberals and Feminists and “The Culture.” We are free to create out own culture. You may be right that some Jehovah’s Witnesses are as culturally paganized as most Catholics are. I don’t know. But I am sure that the Amish, Hasidic Jews, and most Mormons and Muslims in the USA are not culturally paganized like most Catholics are. My argument is against how this who issue is always framed as a “complaint” against outside groups and forces, as if some Plague descended upon us. NO ONE ever FORCED CATHOLIC WOMEN and GIRLS to shift from the PRETTY standard to the HOT standard. Then why did it happen? Why is the “Hot” standard still prevalent among the Catholic People? Because WE CATHOLICS are letting it happen. I beg and plead for WE CATHOLICS to organize, rise up, and end the insanity. Yet, year after year, it never happens. Year after year, bloggers and talk show hosts just keep rallying the “troops” in the “Culture War” AGAINST outsiders, as if we are VICTIMS of some conspiracy. Yet, we are FREE. We can have whatever kind of CATHOLIC CULTURE that we want. My rant is a rant, but it is rant against the other rant that dominates the pages of bloggers and the airwaves of talks show hosts.

This change from the innocent Catholic Culture of the early 1960s and before then, to the culturally paganized Catholic Culture of today and the last 50 years did not JUST HAPPEN.


Those of us who try to rally the “troops” are not acting as if we are victims. The opposite of rallying the troops is to surrender. To do nothing is to surrender, which is what the vast majority of the world, no matter what religion, have done.

The reason we are “free” as you say, is because there are people out there who rally the troops. When we call the troops together, it is so we can gain strength. We need to reach out to those who consider the cause lost, because they feel like they are the last good person on Earth.

What do you suggest as an alternative–that we hide the light of the Truth under a bushel basket?

As far as your second to last statement that this slide did not just happen, I beg to differ. It was a slide, as written about in Robert Bork’s book, Slouching Towards Gomorrah. Little by little, all of the wholesome things in life were usurped and replaced by less wholesome things all through our culture: music, TV, subjects taught in school, you name it. It is much like the frog who is tossed in pot of cold water–it doesn’t notice the water getting warmer and warmer, until it is too late, and it winds up boiled to death. This is why rallying the troops is so important.

As far as your last statement, “We did it;” well don’t include me in that “we.” I have fought the good fight, like every other parent who told our daughters not to roll their skirts at the waist; not to put on make-up at 12; not to break curfews; etc. We told our sons to respect girls and to watch out for the tarts; just as our parents told us before the 1960s.

Even Moses had to rally the troops before they headed out for the Promised Land.

Web site for the National Organization for Women


And a little background on how naive, authority trusting Catholics from the 1960’s were hindered in their free expression of their religion and beliefs, and lied to.

1968 - Cofounder of the National Abortion Rights Action League


1973 - Politics and homosexuality


1992 - No public creches


2007 - Boy Scouts


2009 - Ten Commandments in a Kentucky Courthouse and the ACLU


2010 - ACLU asks Obama Administration to force Catholic Hospitals to do Abortions



Thank you for helpful your additional comments.

YES, I am 100% sure that you are not one of those Catholics who’ve been embracing the debased pagan secular liberal feminist culture over the last 50 years. I don’t mean that.

.0001 percent of Catholics can’t really do much, except suffer. I know you’ve suffered a lot.

What I do means is that the VAST MAJORITY of CATHOLICS have been, over the last 50 years, making the choice to embrace the debased pagan secular liberal feminist culture. They’ve been making that choice, and are still making that choice.

What I mean is that we need an INTERNAL HOUSE CLEANING,** not a “Culture War” against outsiders **(the National Organization for Women; gays; liberals).

We need to RE-CREATE OUR OWN CATHOLIC CULTURE. We Catholics once that in the USA. That was why we had most of our kids on Catholic K-12 school and Catholic colleges. We hardly ever married outside of the Faith. We hardly ever had sex before marriage. We even had an organization called the Legion of Decency that literally had the power to control the content of the movies made in Hollywood.

Then we Catholics THREW AWAY our distinctive Catholic Culture. This all happened. It is largely forgotten now. It happened in the late 1960s. But is is part of history. No one FORCED this upon us. The BULK OF US Catholics made this choice (not you, the tiny minority who suffered as the catastrophe unfolded, and did what you could to fight the evil tide).

Now WE CATHOLICS can, if we CHOOSE, re-build a CATHOLIC CULTURE that is separate from the the debased pagan secular liberal feminist culture. But this will never be accomplished by criticizing the the debased pagan secular liberal feminist culture. The Amish and the Hasidic Jews don’t devote all their their time (as far as I know) to denouncing liberals and feminists. They simply have their own separate cultures. They loose very few of their members to the surrounding decadent culture.

We can’t BUILD a Catholic Culture by attacking the dominant culture, I say. Just let them be.

One builds by building.

One does not build by complaining about what other people are building or have built.

The huge popularity of Rush Limbaugh and his imitators has led us astray. We think we are actually accomplishing something when we denounce liberals and feminists. But we are actually accomplishing nothing. (This makes Rush and his clones very rich personally however, so it does accomplish something for THEM.)

One builds by building.

If a man wants a nice house to live in, he must build a nice house.

**Criticizing the architect of the rental unit he’s living in won’t accomplish anything.

Who is going to do this building of a separate Catholic Culture? Who is going to organize it?

Any Catholic or groups of Catholics with the courage.

**Opus Dei **is the closest thing out there right now that I know of that is already doing this.

But for some reason, the growth of Opus Dei seems to have slowed to a halt. I don’t see them expanding quickly, or having much of an impact on the general Catholic community.

My best guess is that the growth of Opus Dei, in the USA anyway, has been slowed because Opus Dei seems to mainly attract its members from upper class circles, the rich and the professional class.

I’ve been to Opus Dei meetings, and have never seen anyone there from the “working class.” Everyone was a doctor, lawyer, dentist, business owner, investor, accountant, etc., and everyone was wearing very nice suits (they have meetings for me separate from meetings for women).

For years the critics of Opus Dei have cited its elitism as one of its faults. I am a supporter of Opus Dei, but I think this may be one criticism that has validity, at least for the USA locations of Opus Dei. I personally don’t like being part of organizations that seem to only welcome the “upper crust.” That is so un-Christian.

Judge orders 3 year old (who was homeschooled) into daycare


Why Catholic parents homeschool:



To be fair to feminists and the feminist movement (with whom I disagree on almost every issue) what they were arguing for was quality of treatment for women under the prevailing moral code rather than double standards.

Of course the points you make about morality and especially Pre-marital sex are applicable to both sexes but I would venture to suggest that the fact you felt you needed to make that so clear is in part a reflection of feminism.

At the time you are thinking off there was very much a culture which revered a woman’s virginity as ‘special’ and distinct but it’s not PC to say that now - maybe thanks to feminism. Although personally I think that, like separate standards for dress, behaviour etc is a shame and a loss to femininity.

When it began to gain full strength in the 1970s, I was all for equal pay for equal work. I was all for not treating women like sex objects. I brought this up to remind Catholics where radical feminism has ended up:

Support for abortion.
Support for contraception.
Support for same-sex marriage.
Support for Planned Parenthood

Support for the legalization of prostitution.
Source: newsone.com/newsone-original/kirstensavali/now-jocelyn-morris-prostitution/

NOW has done some good work related to battered women, and sexual harassment in the workplace.

But it is not dealing with women being treated as sex objects in topless bars, strip clubs or pornography. How can this help women be treated with dignity and respect in public or private when such things are allowed and even defended by high-priced lawyers?

And there is another issue that relates to “power” as they define it.

“Feminization of Power is the movement of more feminist women into policy-making positions in government, business, education, religion and all the other powerful institutions of society (National Organization for Women).”

I invite everyone to look at the history of Ms. Magazine (yes, that’s where that word came from):


It was co-founded by radical feminist Gloria Steinem and the first issue appeared in January 1972.


Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

It is an undeniable fact that radical aberrant fanatical femenism has resulted in widespread immorality in the Western world, especially since the movement gained momentum in the 1960’s.

So called “free love” is essential to the evil femenist agenda, for carnal copulation is seen as just another physical act from which pleasure is derived. It does not require love or commitment, nor indeed any emotional involvement. Radical femenists routinely disparage marriage and the family because they erroneously assume that they restrict a woman’s freedom, thus carnal relations, devoid of any commitment, is seen as something wholly positive. This poisonous belief began back in the1960’s, however, it is still very evident today among students on the grounds of universities and colleges, where having carnal relations with virtual strangers is sadly all too common occurence. Contraceptives are another crucial part of the free love picture because contraceptives are an attempt to sever the connection between coitus and its God-given function, which is primarily pro-creation.

It is frequently remarked, even by some contemporary Catholic women, that the femenist movement was only concerned with seeking basic equality of the sexes, but equality in this fallen world is for the most part an illusion. Now it is this lamentable lack of reason which underlies the warped femenist mindset. Men and women are different both psychologically and physically. Moreover, their respective human natures are not at variance and nor do they seek to usurp each others function and role but are actually complimentary.

The Church has always been, historically, a great defender of women, whilst in ancient civilisations women were not infrequently subjected to male tyranny and despotism. Our most holy religion elevated women from this degrading servitude by sanctifying marriage and making it invoilable. The Church sanctioned the supernatural equality of man and woman by extolling both marriage and virginity.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,



Dr. Peter Kreeft, a highly respected professor of Catholic philosophy, has written and said over and over again that what made 1960s special there was that at that time there was a gigantic COLLAPSE in the Catholic Church’s resistance in the West (USA and Europe, etc.) to the decadent sexual and social mores.

These decadent sexual values were strong in parts of society in the 1920s (the Roaring 20s), in the “Restoration” period in English history (among the upper class), and in ancient Rome, during the Renaissance (just check out all the lewd and crude sexual references in the plays and poems of Shakespeare, someone supposed to have been a Catholic of some sort), and at other times.

What the 1960s and 1970s different was that the Catholic resistance collapsed. The new sexual and social mores became prevalent among most CATHOLICS for the first time. Therefore, no one forced these new sexual and social mores on Catholics. Catholic, in large numbers, simply opted to go in that direction and no one stopped them. And, no today, we have the mess we are in.

Therefore, blaming outsiders (outside the Catholic Church) doesn’t seem apropos. No radical feminists ever had the power to force radical feminism onto any Catholic family or university. We Catholics are not victims of powerful, nefarious forces outside our control. We don’t need to fight a Culture War against external enemies.

If a parent lets his child eat nothing but junk food, is that really the fault of the producer of the junk food?

Remember the “twinkie defense” that a murder used to get a lighter sentence in the killing of Harvey Milk and the mayor of San Francisco? Wasn’t that ridiculous? Aren’t we using something similar: “The Feminist Defense?” or “The Liberal Defense.”

We Catholics need to Get Our Catholic House In Order.

That’s the only think that will do any good. Rush Limbaugh-type trashing of Liberals and Feminists feels good, for a moment, and then goes on to accomplish NOTHING.

The Old Testament is full of condemnations of the True Church of those times, namely, the Nation of Israel. Most of the condemnations are about the Hebrew people falling into worshiping the foreign gods of neighboring countries. God did not accept as an excuse from the Hebrew people that they could not help themselves, because the foreign religions were just too tempting.

The Catholic Church is the Chose Nation of today. It is the job of the Catholic People to steer clear of non-Catholic ideologies and practices regarding sexuality and marriage.

YET, for the last 40 or so years, we’ve gone adopted wholesale the mores of the dominant pagan culture. Now we suffer.

For some, the solution is to ATTACK and ATTACK and vilify these outsiders who promote “free love” and divorce and so on.

But Liberals and Feminists are FORCING nothing on us. They don’t force Catholics to divorce, fornicate, and abort at the same rates as atheists and the general population of Americans.

So, I wish we could be logical, and regain our senses, and do what needs to be done, rather than wasting all this energy in imitating the self proclaimed radio “doctor of democracy.”

Ah yes, another thread condemning modern mores and exalting the 1950s/Good Old Days:rolleyes:

I think were way ahead of the 50s in many ways just due to the fact that we got rid of Jim Crow and ended the Cold War (without destroying the world).

I lost a lot of respect for Peter Kreeft when he published that.
Frankly I think he’s using bad math when talking about how great Muslims are.
Women and girls aren’t particularly well protected (the opposite in largely true) in Muslim societies like Egypt, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc. (pretty much anywhere where Muslims have most of the legal and social power).

Promoting marriage and virginity doesn’t necessarily raise the status of women.
And did the Catholic Church ever actually say that men and women were equal in dignity, worth, etc. prior to the 20th century?

I agree. The fact is that Islam itself with its rules does put women in a secondary place. Some Islamic jurists have been trying to establish that the rules during Mohamed’s time should change with the times but I do not see much acceptance.

The promotion of marriage etc is not wrong in itself but double standards, stating women are subject to men are so very wrong and so anti Christian.

Some in the Church did and most importantly, Christ did. Sadly, there are those who would use parts from the Bible to dilute/amend what Christ taught. Those Bible passages are never from the Gospels quoting Christ.

They argued for equality but wanted the double standard. IOW, what they wanted was to be equal but special.

I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again: valuing a woman for her virginity, purity, or innocence, or even for what you perceive as such is still valuing her for her sexuality, not for who she is as a person. And I know it may come as a shock to some, but a woman is so much more than her sexual experiences, or lack thereof.

Things like the linked article give me the creeps. The whole “I want a woman who projects innocence” or “society used to value virginal women and we should again” thing strikes me as an underhanded way of saying “this is what I want sexually from a woman”.

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